Gallery Shooting Holds??

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 7/27/2017, 1:21 pm

First topic message reminder :

I’m very new to shooting indoor 50 foot gallery style rim fire matches.  I’ve only shot five and cannot break 200.  With an air pistol at 10 meters or my free pistol at 50 YDS. I’ll shoot in the mid 500’s without a lot of thought; this .22 semi is eating me alive I’m afraid.

I’m shooting irons and using the same sub six o’clock hold I use in the other disciplines, should I be using a center hold with the gallery course of fire?     As it is now the slow fire scores are my saviors as I treat that like a quicker AP match; but my rapid and timed shots are total disasters, I’ve even missed the paper with some shots.     Honestly I’d be better shooting slow, scoring 9’s and 10’s and not getting enough shots off, than what I’m doing now.
avatar
Jon Math

Posts : 164
Join date : 2016-12-05
Age : 57
Location : Mass.

Back to top Go down


Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Aprilian on 7/28/2017, 1:47 pm

Jon Math wrote:I guess I don’t follow the concept of keep the trigger moving.
Jon,  as a first year marksman, I can't offer any better advice than above - but I perhaps can explain it a different way which may help you understand it.

Problem execution
* move pistol into perfect sight and target alignment
* start trigger and be willing to accept slightly off trigger application in order to "capture" the x you are seeing in the sights
* wonder why it is a 6

Best execution (which I am still training on)
* move pistol towards target and sight alignment
* start movement of the trigger
* keep trigger moving smoothly directly to the rear
* while trigger is moving, improve or maintain alignment
* accept slightly off aiming in order to have perfect trigger execution
* back to the top for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th shots
* move up a class as you get more 9s, 10s and xs

IHTH
avatar
Aprilian

Posts : 375
Join date : 2016-05-13
Location : Minnesota

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 7/28/2017, 1:49 pm

Thank you, Again!!
avatar
Jon Math

Posts : 164
Join date : 2016-12-05
Age : 57
Location : Mass.

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 7/28/2017, 1:52 pm

I am absolutely treating it as five separate fast shooting events instead of one continuous event.
avatar
Jon Math

Posts : 164
Join date : 2016-12-05
Age : 57
Location : Mass.

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Wobbley on 7/28/2017, 2:17 pm

How do you practice sustained fire?

Perhaps it is best to practice getting as many well aimed shots off in the 10 seconds as possible.  If that is two, then it is two.  Work to increase your speed.  8 10s is 80.  It beats 2 10s and a mush mash that totals 79 all day long.  Practice good shots and work on getting that process completed in a second each.

 With the Euro-style ergo grips it is more difficult to learn how to grip a pistol for NRA bullseye.  Without proper control of the pistol, recovery takes too long.  The ergo grips promote light grip forces.  Can't do that in bullseye.

Wobbley

Posts : 1115
Join date : 2015-02-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 7/28/2017, 2:40 pm

It’s interesting you would say that.  I started with an old High Standard that had simple slab panels and was doing OK with it till it broke one to many times so I went out and got a Benelli MP90 with Euro grips and my results went to heck in a hand basket right after that. I was so disappointed I went out and got a Ruger MKIII but put euro grips on that too.  It shoots a bit better, but after reading  your thoughts on the grips and above comments on tighter gripping I plan to put the slabs back on the Ruger and give it a go this weekend.

I practice against a count down timer.  I set it a couple of seconds longer than the shooting period to give me time to trip it and get set to shoot.  I often shoot at blank sheets or targets with the lines in the black marked out.  I try not to get carried away with the score and focus more on my group tightness roundness, and keeping it in the center.
avatar
Jon Math

Posts : 164
Join date : 2016-12-05
Age : 57
Location : Mass.

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Dr.Don on 7/28/2017, 3:09 pm

The Bullseye phone app is the best audio timer in my opinion because it gives you the complete set of line commands with correct timing along with the buzzer for 10 or 20 second intervals.  It also has drills you can use to practice getting the first shot off in 2 seconds, 1 second, etc.  If you use muffs with electronics you just plug your phone into your ears.......

Audible timers are not the same as turning targets, but most of us have limited opportunity for practice on turning targets.
avatar
Dr.Don

Posts : 425
Join date : 2012-10-31
Location : Cedar Park, TX

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Magload on 7/28/2017, 3:11 pm

I have removed, Keep the trigger moving, from my shot plan and replaced it with Keep the pressure building.  Reason, I do not feel the trigger moving.  I have removed the trigger shoes. i am using the joint of my finger with the trigger against the bone.  I have dry fired with my eyes closed with just contrasting on the trigger.  If it moves any it is very little I just feel pressure build up and the break. There fore if I was going to start the trigger moving before entering the black that is where my shot is going to be.  What I been trying to do is stare my pressure as my wobble is at it's minimum or approaching it's minimum.   I have bought some very nice BE pistols this year and will not give up yet but they can be used for my favorite shooting Benchrest Pistol.  I go to the range normally 5 times a week this month it has been one time and I been dry firing at the wall and doing hold drills. Maybe being 70 I started this sport to late in life.  Don
avatar
Magload

Posts : 1069
Join date : 2016-11-18
Age : 71
Location : NE Florida

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by 285wannab on 7/28/2017, 3:19 pm

There is some good stuff here.
I didn't know that Timed and Rapid was four times easier.  I shoot Timed and Rapid better but I didn't know it was a thing.
Also don't know if I start my trigger squeeze before finding my sight picture.  That's changing.
For shooting indoors with a buzzer I listen for "Ready on the firing line", I count 21, 22 and 23 and my trigger is pulled.  I trust my stance to have me somewhere in the middle.

285wannab

Posts : 117
Join date : 2014-08-13

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by 285wannab on 7/28/2017, 3:32 pm

Another thing I had trouble understand was keeping the trigger moving.  I used to think I only have an 1/8 of an inch of travel or less on my hook and sear.  Not much there to pull through.  But if you think about it you have to pull though your flesh on your finger  and two lbs and 1/8 of an inch.  If you jerking this you won't feel anything but if your going slower and smoother......

285wannab

Posts : 117
Join date : 2014-08-13

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/28/2017, 3:34 pm

too bad no one has a scatt trigger pressure sensor on a 1911
avatar
Chris Miceli

Posts : 1611
Join date : 2015-10-27
Location : Haymarket, VA

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by BE Mike on 7/28/2017, 4:10 pm

Jon Math wrote:   Honestly I’d be better shooting slow, scoring 9’s and 10’s and not getting enough shots off, than what I’m doing now.
You need to think about this statement you made. It is better to get off three or four good shots in sustained fire than to shoot 5 bad shots! Think about that while you are getting the hang of it. So, once you have made high master, you'll retire from bullseye pistol shooting? Laughing
avatar
BE Mike

Posts : 1402
Join date : 2011-07-29
Location : Indiana

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Eulette on 7/28/2017, 4:52 pm

When I teach new Shooters how to shoot bullseye I always teach them to shoot five good shots before ever considering time to Rapid Fire. You have to learn a little finesse before you can pick up the speed and shoot under time constraints.
Jon
avatar
Jon Eulette

Posts : 1736
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by TomH_pa on 7/28/2017, 5:16 pm

When I reset the trigger at the top of recoil a lot of times I will run through it on the next shot and shoot high, sometimes very high. I've been told that's not all bad

Do I need to slow down my trigger press or speed up driving the gun back to the target? or both? Seems to me that I need to press the trigger almost in slow motion so to speak

I'm pretty sure because of setting it off to early I take my finger clear off of the trigger a lot of times

TomH_pa

Posts : 37
Join date : 2017-03-17

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jack H on 7/28/2017, 8:38 pm

Ultimately I think you should not be aware of your trigger reset and restart.  Somewhere along the line it should just happen as part of the overall rhythm.  Don't ask me of any secrets how to get there.
avatar
Jack H

Posts : 1305
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 68
Location : Duckburg, Orygun

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by BE Mike on 7/29/2017, 6:55 am

Jack H wrote:Ultimately I think you should not be aware of your trigger reset and restart.  Somewhere along the line it should just happen as part of the overall rhythm.  Don't ask me of any secrets how to get there.
I think Bill Blankenship has at least one article devoted to that in "The Pistol Shooters Treasury" IIRC. He worked on trying to speed up his trigger pressure and keep the increase smooth. He also worked on getting his trigger to trip by habit. He jury rigged a 1911 trigger with a weight gauge that showed the weight applied to the trigger as it increased.
avatar
BE Mike

Posts : 1402
Join date : 2011-07-29
Location : Indiana

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 7/31/2017, 9:24 am

I want to thank everyone again for the great advice.  I spent several hours this weekend at the range and in front of a wall at home dry firing.  The firm grip made a major difference in my speed, and group size.  I still have to really work at accepting the first decent sight picture as my instincts are to not release a less than perfect shot. 

I shot outdoors at proper distances, tonight I plan to go to the indoor range and make sure the pistol is sighted for the 50 foot gallery distance. 

Training scores are one thing, the proof is competition.  I shoot tomorrow night, I’m hoping for an improvement. 
avatar
Jon Math

Posts : 164
Join date : 2016-12-05
Age : 57
Location : Mass.

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 8/2/2017, 7:17 am

Shot last night—it was a good bad and ugly event.  I did not break 200, but my rapid and timed were in the 60’s which is a fair improvement.  Grabbing a really firm hold of that grip sure seemed to help.

    I got off to a horrid start.  My first round of the night in slow fire seemed absolutely perfect, great hold- great release-it missed the target completely.  I either cross fired (doubtful) or I had a defective bullet, but feared I had a sight issue.  Either way it shook me up.  Everything seemed right, the bolt was back in battery, the case had ejected, the sights did not move at least with finger pressure pushing at them.  I held right at the target’s lower edge for the next shot as if I miss a slow fire shot it’s always high.  In hind sight I should have aimed normally as that second round printed right where I aimed it - on the paper but out of the scoring rings; 20 points missing in two shots.  I ended up putting up 80 points on that target paper with the next 8 rounds.  What happened to that first shot is still bothering me. In Bullseye it did not matter as I’m not even a mid-pack shooter, but from my free pistol, in a match, it would have been a disaster.
avatar
Jon Math

Posts : 164
Join date : 2016-12-05
Age : 57
Location : Mass.

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 8/11/2017, 6:16 am



Well, I'm getting there at least.  The 7 does not bother me as much at the 8 at 9 O'clock does.  The 7 is in line with the 10 ring. That 8 is confirmation of something I see when I dry fire.  I cannot seem to pull straight back on the trigger and I get the slightest deflection of my front sight to the left side.
avatar
Jon Math

Posts : 164
Join date : 2016-12-05
Age : 57
Location : Mass.

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Chris Miceli on 8/11/2017, 6:37 am

Jon Math wrote:

Well, I'm getting there at least.  The 7 does not bother me as much at the 8 at 9 O'clock does.  The 7 is in line with the 10 ring. That 8 is confirmation of something I see when I dry fire.  I cannot seem to pull straight back on the trigger and I get the slightest deflection of my front sight to the left side.
I get a lot of 3 o clock shots (left hand shooter) when borrowing pistols that have long triggers. I have a hard time coming straight back with a longer trigger. If i grip the gun more off the side of my hand vs my normal grip the 3 o clocks go away, the group tends to grow slightly since its not my preferred grip. Maybe trigger length? Maybe grip?  Maybe just snatching that shot? Maybe too much over-travel ? I'd say your group is center on the left side of the X ring though.
avatar
Chris Miceli

Posts : 1611
Join date : 2015-10-27
Location : Haymarket, VA

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 8/11/2017, 7:16 am

The trigger in the pistol I use is not adjustable for position, but it’s pretty far back in the trigger guard, which helps.  Even my pistols that do offer me the option of moving the blade location around I tend to keep them centered in the guard (side to side) and locate the assembly as far back as they allow. 

Oddly I can shoot a revolver in double action better than I can shoot a semi-auto in single action, and the revolver trigger is quite a reach for me.  Single action puts the trigger about the same position as the semi auto pistol does for me.   I learned to shoot with a revolver so that might be the case of old dogs and new tricks Very Happy
avatar
Jon Math

Posts : 164
Join date : 2016-12-05
Age : 57
Location : Mass.

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by DNP on 8/11/2017, 4:23 pm

" The 7 does not bother me as much at the 8 at 9 O'clock does".   That 8 at 9 O'clock  bothers me too, must have my eyes checked.   nice target for your classification,  Don

DNP

Posts : 1
Join date : 2017-04-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 8/14/2017, 8:51 am

DNP wrote:" The 7 does not bother me as much at the 8 at 9 O'clock does".   That 8 at 9 O'clock  bothers me too, must have my eyes checked.   nice target for your classification,  Don

Opps! 9 at 9 Sorry
avatar
Jon Math

Posts : 164
Join date : 2016-12-05
Age : 57
Location : Mass.

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by jmdavis on 8/14/2017, 10:46 am

Jon Math wrote:It’s interesting you would say that.  I started with an old High Standard that had simple slab panels and was doing OK with it till it broke one to many times so I went out and got a Benelli MP90 with Euro grips and my results went to heck in a hand basket right after that. I was so disappointed I went out and got a Ruger MKIII but put euro grips on that too.  It shoots a bit better, but after reading  your thoughts on the grips and above comments on tighter gripping I plan to put the slabs back on the Ruger and give it a go this weekend.

I practice against a count down timer.  I set it a couple of seconds longer than the shooting period to give me time to trip it and get set to shoot.  I often shoot at blank sheets or targets with the lines in the black marked out.  I try not to get carried away with the score and focus more on my group tightness roundness, and keeping it in the center.
You need to fit the grips to your hand. To do so, you should check the following online resources. I shoot an MP95/90 (originally an MP95 with upgraded trigger group and ortho grip). I had to customize the grip to really make it work for me and get into the 850's, 860's with it. 


http://www.airforceshooting.org/GripFitting.pdf
https://www.usashooting.org/library/Instructional/Pistol/pistol_july_aug_2009.pdf
http://www.pistol-shooting.com/grip-modifications.php

I use wood epoxy and nitrile gloves when I work on my grips. 

Now I will say this. The Morini grip on my LP10 air pistol is the best grip I have ever bought. I bought it second hand and have made few changes and it needed no filling. I think Part of the reason of this is that the Morini grips tend not  to have finger grooves and that helps make them better for me. I had the same experience with a Morini Grip on a CM82. That pistol pointed better than any other 22 I have. My LP 10 is the same. 

I have been able to modify the Rink grip on my MP90 with epoxy and moleskin to get a good fit. The instructions that I used are those posted above.
avatar
jmdavis

Posts : 1124
Join date : 2012-03-23
Location : Virginia

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jack H on 8/14/2017, 12:00 pm

In a gallery practice session a while back, there are about 25 shots sustained on the right here from a lowly MkII bull barrel.  The SF group on left preceded it and caused a sight adj.  The shooter was pretty "on" that day.  I only noted the rhythm of the firing shots.




(Above 25 yd target was arm rested)
avatar
Jack H

Posts : 1305
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 68
Location : Duckburg, Orygun

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 8/14/2017, 12:17 pm

On any given night at the league shoots of the 18 shooters or so about half will be behind Pardini’s latest and greatest $2000.00 pistols, the remainder shoot a mix of pistols; but to say it would take a grand a piece to buy any of them would not be an understatement.  I certainly do not care what people shoot, I’m sure confidence in your pistol is helpful, but maybe people place too much importance on the tool.  This shooting is certainly proof the Indian is more important than the arrow. 
avatar
Jon Math

Posts : 164
Join date : 2016-12-05
Age : 57
Location : Mass.

Back to top Go down

Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum