Help me solve this bullet problem

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Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by lablover on 7/30/2017, 11:09 am

Had to pull a few bullets to check charges and saw this little gem to drive me nuts.  If you look at the top band of the bullet you can see a small ridge.  I figured it was because I was crimping too much so started playing around with the crimp setting.  I set the crimp so light that now the dummy round I made would no longer plunk into the chamber.  I pulled the bullet again (fresh bullet) and I'm still getting that little ridge on the top band.  It's like the crimper is squishing the lead to much at the top.  I did this with the bullets I cast and thought too soft lead...But then I tried it with some dardis cast bullets I have as well that a real hard and still the same ridge.

Should I let it alone and think it's not going to affect accuracy?

I'm going to clean my Dillon crimp die and try again.  I will also pull a bullet before I crimp it to see if it's there at all before crimping.

Can anyone give suggestions on why this might be happening?

Pretty frustrating.  Thing is I never knew it was happening until I pulled a bullet for another reason.

Thanks in advance fellas

Joe

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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by lablover on 7/30/2017, 11:39 am

Pulled a bullet before crimping. No squish line at the top.

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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by noylj on 7/30/2017, 11:48 am

Thanks for the pictures, but this sounds like an issue where you will need to find someone who has already lived through it or we need to be at your press.
Remove the seating and crimping dies, clean them, and then re-install them and write down exactly everything you do. This may help us or it may actually show you where the problem is.
I look at that and my first thought is you are crimping beyond EXCESS—but you adjusted the crimp.
You could chamfer your cases lightly inside and out, but, beyond that, you have me stumped.
If the bullets aren't like that going in and all you have done is crimp, then the fault is in the crimp die or set-up.
As far as crimp goes, please stop thinking crimp. A taper crimp does NOT hold the bullet, all you want is to remove the case mouth flare. When I look at factory rounds, I see absolutely no sign of "crimp." If I lay a straightedge along the case, the case mouth does not curve in.
Finally, you can track down the problem, but, in reality, that will not cause any concern unless the bullet diameter has been swaged down.

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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by Jack H on 7/30/2017, 11:51 am

Of course crimping bites into the bullet.
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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by lablover on 7/30/2017, 11:58 am

I bet it will cause NO issues with the bullet accuracy.  I have a M style powder funnel on the way, not sure it's even part of the problem but I wanted one anyway.  I cleaned all the dies and adjusted the crimp die out so far it barely removes the bell and still getting the tiny grove.  I think Jack has the right idea "Of course crimping bites into the bullet"

I think I'd be happy if someone posted a pic that has the same issue and is putting up MASTER scores I could sleep...LOL..BTW, did I mention I have OCD. Smile

I also will try a slight case chamfer as well..

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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by Jack H on 7/30/2017, 12:11 pm

I once had some Winchester 230 white box ammo that was crimped to .466-.465.  Bullets were ring dented into the copper.  It shot fine. 

Also had some Winchester 185 JSWC target yellow box that needed more crimp to feed.  Uncrimped it has an edge that hung up angled biting into the Gold Cup chamber.  After adding crimp, it shot fine.
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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by Magnusbullets on 7/30/2017, 12:14 pm

What is Bullet diameter before and after?

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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by oldsalt444 on 7/30/2017, 12:15 pm

I wouldn't worry about it.  It's the base of the bullet where you don't want any damage done; the top not so much. This won't affect your accuracy.  Bullets need a light to medium crimp for consistent ignition.  Don't overdo it.  If this bothers you that much, then try chamfering the inside of the case mouth.
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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by oldsalt444 on 7/30/2017, 12:16 pm

I crimp my cast bullet loads .469-.470 and have never had a problem.
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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by Aprilian on 7/30/2017, 12:17 pm

measure the bullet sections
1) where it is above the case line (initial bullet diameter)
2) at the crimp
3) the section sized by the case below the crimp

If you aren't over-sizing the driving bands (and ending up with too small a diameter) it should be OK.

My understanding of crimp is to both reduce the bell to make sure it chambers - AND to avoid set back of the bullet which would increase pressure.   As Jack indicated, you can't stop the bullet from moving without mechanically gripping the bullet with the case.
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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by lablover on 7/30/2017, 12:40 pm

Measured the bullet before seating and it's .451 on the money...After seating and pull bullet , re-measure still .451. seat and now crimp.......  .451.  Nothing has changed.  I think I need to stop worrying about this one..

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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by Gary Wells on 7/30/2017, 4:06 pm

Are you using a shoulder seating die?

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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by lablover on 7/30/2017, 4:57 pm

Gary Wells wrote:Are you using a shoulder seating die?
I'm using a Dillon seating die but I have the shoulder stem inside.  I replaced the stock Dillon stem with it.

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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by Gary Wells on 7/30/2017, 6:59 pm

lablover:
I believe that you are looking at minor shaving as the factory Dillon powder funnel measures at about .4465 at the expander end where it enters and expands the case mouth. Your bullet measures .451 which leaves an interference fit of about .002 per side on the diameter.

I went with the M style powder funnel which measures about .450 at the expander end where it enters the case mouth. I have the same band on my hard cast Dardas H&G mold # 130 "button bullet", but the band does not go around the full circumference of the bullet. Maybe about 30% or so. I can feel a ledge there though.

Even though I have the shoulder stem I had to  remove it and go back to the Dillon stem as it was dinging & gouging the very top of the bullet on the Magnus swaged lead HP SWC. Your issue could be also compounded by the shoulder stem pushing down where there is such a small amount of lead ledge on the top land outside of the case mouth.

I believe that the non-Dillon stem might go better with a sleeved seater. I doubt that the ledge is going to hurt accuracy though.

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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by Gary Wells on 7/30/2017, 8:31 pm

Also, if you remove the stem from the Dillon seater die and measure the dia of the stem versus the seater body, you will see that there is .022 difference in the 2 dias.
The locating pin keeps the stem normal in 1 direction, but the stem is free to swing .011 in either direction opposite to the locator pin. This is why I think that the stem might be designed for a sleeve seater die.

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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by 243winxb on 7/31/2017, 6:16 pm

I am sure its a "taper" crimp die?  But had to ask.
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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by lablover on 7/31/2017, 7:09 pm

243winxb wrote:I am sure its a "taper" crimp die?  But had to ask.
Hey 243

Yes, it is a taper crimp die.  I appreciate you asking however.

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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by Larry2520 on 7/31/2017, 8:13 pm

If you read the recomendations at Dardas they tell you not to expand the mouth of the brass.

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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by lablover on 7/31/2017, 8:56 pm

I didn't see that.  I'll have to read the logic behind that.


EDIT:  Just read it, makes sense....I could get a Lyman M die but trying to figure out how to incorporate that into my Dillon 650.  I guess I could back out the powder funnel enough so it doesn't flare the case mouth.  Plus the Lyman is cheaper than the M style Dillon powder funnel.

time to do some more reading.


EDIT 2:  I have a ribs expander for my 45 colt..I wonder if that would work.  Does great for my 45 colt. )

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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by Gary Wells on 7/31/2017, 9:52 pm

I've been expanding what's left of my Dardas 185 gr. H&G # 130 also. I'll be switching over to Magnus swaged 185 gr HP's.

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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by lablover on 8/2/2017, 3:52 pm

So I tried the 45 colt M die I have from RCBS...Different world for sure.  I still get a very faint ring at the top but nothing like it was.  I think I can live with that. :0

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Re: Help me solve this bullet problem

Post by Steve Brown on 8/4/2017, 3:25 am


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