It's that easy!

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

It's that easy!

Post by Mike38 on 8/5/2017, 12:41 pm

Well, not exactly that easy, but.... I did some training this morning. Haven't touched a pistol in two weeks. Haven't even dry fired. Got set up, then the mental game.

1) Visualize the perfect shot.
2) Grip.
3) Sight alignment.
4) Focus on front sight.
5) Press the trigger.
6) Follow through.

Scoped my first shot. Looked like an X. Had to walk down range to verify. Yep, hole touching the letter X. It doesn't get any better than that. Second shot, 10 but to right, actually called it! It went a bit down hill from there, but shot a 267-5x NMC, which is outstanding for me.

So, those of us that are struggling, myself included, it is possible. Apply the basic fundamentals, and it's guaranteed you will put a hole in the black each and every time. Now if I could only do this in a match!
avatar
Mike38

Posts : 207
Join date : 2016-09-15
Location : Illinois

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by john bickar on 8/5/2017, 2:01 pm

It's simple, but it's not easy.
avatar
john bickar

Posts : 889
Join date : 2011-07-09
Location : Menlo Park, CA

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by 285wannab on 8/5/2017, 2:59 pm


285wannab

Posts : 147
Join date : 2014-08-13

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by Froneck on 8/6/2017, 12:09 pm

Adam; being coach of the AMU pistol team claims it easier to teach a new shooter to become a HM rather than try to teach a shooter that has been shooting for a while. Bad habits are very hard to break.

Froneck

Posts : 869
Join date : 2014-04-05
Age : 70

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by Jon Eulette on 8/6/2017, 12:46 pm

Takes 6 months to change a shooting habit (good or bad) or fundamental. For example: I never used thumb pressure when gripping back in early 90's. When I found that arthritic hands need thumb pressure it took me 6 months to get used to the change to where it became natural. I was dry firing every day and it really took longer than I would've thought. So new shooters can be a blessing to teach/train.
Jon
avatar
Jon Eulette

Posts : 1969
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by CR10X on 8/6/2017, 3:47 pm

Pretty much my process

1) Visualize the perfect shot. (Look at the X through the scope) 
2) Grip.
3) Sight alignment.
4) Focus on front sight.
5) Press the trigger.
6) Follow through.

(8') Call the shot (See the wobble, alignment, etc. before, during the sear trip and when recoil starts. Capture the picture of the sights / dot when the gun is firing. Sometimes it helps to have a target beside you and mark where you called the shot.)

(9') Verify and compare.  ((A)If not on call, then review how much was actually seen.  We have to see what's going on precisely to get consistency.  Work on calling (seeing) the entire shot. Forget the result and do not try to figure out what went wrong.  If we can't see it, then we don't know. (B) If on call but not a 10, then review shot and wobble process (how the sights / dot were moving) like a movie to to determine better time for trigger completion and then visualize the shot with better trigger timing or trigger control.  (C) If on call and 10 or better, simply review the shot like a movie again. Reinforce the feeling of what was seen, the timing, desire and enjoyment from the results.  Repeat as needed.   

CR

CR10X

Posts : 726
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by joy2shoot on 8/10/2017, 2:52 pm

CR10X wrote:(8') Call the shot (See the wobble, alignment, etc. before, during the sear trip and when recoil starts. Capture the picture of the sights / dot when the gun is firing. Sometimes it helps to have a target beside you and mark where you called the shot.)

What I have heard from Cecil, Brian Zins and other top shooters, is to really See, not just look at, the shot as Cecil describes above.  This requires, for me, intense concentration.  But when I do, my results are always better.  (Target below is a 25 yard slow fire target shot about 1 hour ago.)


joy2shoot

Posts : 256
Join date : 2014-08-02
Location : North Carolina

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by Chris Miceli on 8/10/2017, 2:58 pm

joy2shoot wrote:
CR10X wrote:(8') Call the shot (See the wobble, alignment, etc. before, during the sear trip and when recoil starts. Capture the picture of the sights / dot when the gun is firing. Sometimes it helps to have a target beside you and mark where you called the shot.)

What I have heard from Cecil, Brian Zins and other top shooters, is to really See, not just look at, the shot as Cecil describes above.  This requires, for me, intense concentration.  But when I do, my results are always better.  (Target below is a 25 yard slow fire target shot about 1 hour ago.)

Very nice reduced target, little buggers are tough
avatar
Chris Miceli

Posts : 2192
Join date : 2015-10-27
Location : Northern Virginia

Back to top Go down

Technique

Post by Keithcrc on 9/9/2017, 10:32 pm

Also, if you could stand on your head, align the sights with the target, move the trigger without disturbing the sights and do it consistently, then do that. Consistency is important.
avatar
Keithcrc

Posts : 44
Join date : 2017-08-18

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by kilowhiskey on 9/11/2017, 8:05 pm

New guy here, I'll get around to introducing myself properly in the new guy section eventually. After a year I'm up to page 3 and 4 of the Marine corps book.

Looking for a little input here on dry fire technique. One thing I just thought of, that I haven’t seen explicitly written, isn't it  better to dry fire on a blank wall or blank target directly in front of the pistol, rather than on a blank target down range? 
Reason I'm thinking this is when the blank target is right in front of the barrel, the eye has no temptation to stray any distance from the front sight, and muscular memory of staying on the sight should get developed. 
Dry firing on that blank target down range, I find my eye yields to temptation and wanders despite good intentions.

Thanks

Ken

kilowhiskey

Posts : 2
Join date : 2016-09-12

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by rich.tullo on 9/11/2017, 9:10 pm

kilowhiskey wrote:New guy here, I'll get around to introducing myself properly in the new guy section eventually. After a year I'm up to page 3 and 4 of the Marine corps book.

Looking for a little input here on dry fire technique. One thing I just thought of, that I haven’t seen explicitly written, isn't it  better to dry fire on a blank wall or blank target directly in front of the pistol, rather than on a blank target down range? 
Reason I'm thinking this is when the blank target is right in front of the barrel, the eye has no temptation to stray any distance from the front sight, and muscular memory of staying on the sight should get developed. 
Dry firing on that blank target down range, I find my eye yields to temptation and wanders despite good intentions.

Thanks

Ken
Dave Lange told me to do both. I dry fire on a blank wall then turn around and I use a 20 foot small bore Rifle target which approximates a 50 yard target at 15/20 feet. Using a repair center will not help.
avatar
rich.tullo

Posts : 922
Join date : 2015-03-27

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by Mike38 on 9/12/2017, 5:04 pm

john bickar wrote:It's simple, but it's not easy.


Easy to say, not so easy to do. Two matches ago I shot a 786 with the .22, which is good for me. Latest match two days ago, I shot a 722. Think I've got the front sight focus down pat, but now I'm jerking the trigger. Someday I'll be able to put it all together.
avatar
Mike38

Posts : 207
Join date : 2016-09-15
Location : Illinois

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by rich.tullo on 9/12/2017, 7:43 pm

Mike38 wrote:
john bickar wrote:It's simple, but it's not easy.


Easy to say, not so easy to do. Two matches ago I shot a 786 with the .22, which is good for me. Latest match two days ago, I shot a 722. Think I've got the front sight focus down pat, but now I'm jerking the trigger. Someday I'll be able to put it all together.
Do not talk about scores. Focus on process.
avatar
rich.tullo

Posts : 922
Join date : 2015-03-27

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by Mike38 on 9/13/2017, 6:14 pm

rich.tullo wrote:Do not talk about scores. Focus on process.

Point taken. In training, I no longer shoot at regulation targets. I shoot at those solid black 9 ring targets. I don't care about scores, just concentrating on putting holes in the black.
avatar
Mike38

Posts : 207
Join date : 2016-09-15
Location : Illinois

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by rich.tullo on 9/13/2017, 7:31 pm

Those are good. Your score is the outcome of your process. I would rather shoot a 90 9x then a 93-0 with 8s and 7s because my process was perfect 8 times. Think about this way, in a match over 90 shots, it is easier to overcome a bad shot than to overcome bad process. Therefore it takes less effort to shoot well than to shoot poorly. 

Recently in a 45acp match I shot a 816 which is 21 points below my personal best but I was very happy with my score because I had 2 outs and 2 fives. (my timing was off in rapid fire) 

I know what I have to work on and the way I look at things is I turn those zeds into 10s and I am shooting 836 and if I shoot slow fire and timed fire to my potential and I am in the 850 range. 

Owing to my focus on process and not score I know exactly what I need to do to improve. Slow fire, my zero was a little off owing to a new load I was working on and that was fixed by the NMC where I shot a Gallery 95 5x and I have been doing double tap drills to get my sustained fire pacing right. 

By focus on process and finding ways to remediate problems I think I can address the issues faster and cheaper as compared to shooting with issues and not understanding. If I did not understand I needed to work on sustained fire process I could shoot 2000 rounds and go backwards and not improve. But after 300 rounds of very productive training I think I have improved my rapid fire scores by 5%. 

With 4 more days of training like that I think my gains will be locked in.
avatar
rich.tullo

Posts : 922
Join date : 2015-03-27

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by mikemyers on 9/14/2017, 9:29 pm

Mike38 wrote:......I did some training this morning. Haven't touched a pistol in two weeks. Haven't even dry fired. Got set up, then the mental game........
I haven't really been here in a little over a week - what you wrote reminded me I haven't touched a gun or my reloading gear or anything else in all that time.  Hurricane Irma was supposed to go directly over my condo, and I was thinking that despite the building being concrete, with hurricane windows, most or much of my stuff was about to get destroyed.  

I went to the range the middle of the previous week, to get my mind off hurricanes, expecting it to change path.  It didn't, so I packed up as best I could, got ready to move to a stairwell with my emergency suitcase, and packed a book to read that I didn't care about, Godzilla.  

The hurricane jogged, and devastated a different part of Florida, not Miami, and my building had only minor damage.  I was one of the 15% of Floridians who still had power, although my elevators went on strike.  Still, I haven't found out yet if my shooting range survived the storm.


I haven't really done anything for 10 days or so.  I was going to do some reloading.  I was going to work on cleaning my guns.  I was going to do a lot of stuff, but I was so terrified by what could have been, that my heart wasn't really into it.  Which I just thought about after reading your post.  Now that it's over, I think I'm going to slow down, and relax, and enjoy my shooting once I'm back at the range.  I've got a trip to India coming up, so I'll probably be way out of shape when I return.

Reminds me of one of my favorite sayings from when I was just out of college:  "When you're up to your neck in alligators, it's difficult to remember that the original objective was to drain the swamp."  


Thanks for posting what you did!
avatar
mikemyers

Posts : 922
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 74
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down

It is easy, for machines

Post by Dipnet on 9/16/2017, 9:19 am

My shooting travels through a great arc of being human. During dry fire I recently recalled that most shooting errors stem from errant trigger squeezes, the more subtile, the harder to correct, especially during a match. The stance, grip, all the basics are ingrained. Mistakes begin at the long line and if I don't do well there, an anxiety carries over to the timed fire stages. What I remembered that if you only focus on trigger squeeze, your mind (the other end of your body) knows what you want to do and the pistol follows.

Progress ebbs and flows and then suddenly jumps, especially when I'm feeling good and and am focused. The mental discipline that is recently helping me the most is visualization, discussed in the Bullseye Mind. My relaxed place is floating in a canoe down a stream with a low sun, watching midges lazily dancing over gin-clear water. The stream bottom clean and varied and I am so relaxed. I set up, pick up my fly rod and make a perfect cast, the fly falling a foot from shore. The water explodes with joy, an nice smallmouth leaping and I am so happy.

I do the breathing exercises after finding my happy place and raise the pistol, focusing on grip, fingers pulling straight back. The pistol seems to center itself on the target as I focus on a perfect trigger squeeze. The called shots are invariably in the target's center. The essential trick is not to take over, thinking, "Well, I've mastered that."

I am going to do this with each long line shot at tomorrow's 1800 match in Jacksonville. We'll see. dipnet

PS: At last month's 1800, I muttered something about my 45 shooting low and the left, a recent persistent issue. Another shooter said, "A craftsman never blames his tools." I muttered under my breath.

I thought I was having a grip issue and even installed a short trigger. I did everything but the obvious (bench it) and damn if the pistol wasn't off, shooting low and left. I am clueless why this change in POI happened (checked sight; that baby is cranked down). I did lower my long line load, but by only a few tenths of grain, and that at most should only have only dropped 50 yard POI by very little. The embarrassing thing is I've had this issue for about six months and did everything but the obvious (and I keep a pistol rest in my truck). Something blankety-blank "KISS." Arrrrggggghhhhh, foiled myself again. The slow march in improvement is, well, slow.
avatar
Dipnet

Posts : 132
Join date : 2014-06-09
Location : Gainesville, Florida

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by rich.tullo on 9/16/2017, 11:14 am

"Few" 10ths that is huge. JHP loaded at 4.1 BE is radically less accurate at 50 yards  than a Nosler loaded at 4.5 BE.
avatar
rich.tullo

Posts : 922
Join date : 2015-03-27

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by Jon Eulette on 9/16/2017, 11:18 am

rich.tullo wrote:"Few" 10ths that is huge. JHP loaded at 4.1 BE is radically less accurate at 50 yards  than a Nosler loaded at 4.5 BE.
Rich can you provide proof that 4.1 is "radically" less accurate than 4.5? Define radical? Let me rephrase that.....why do you believe 4.1 is radically worse than 4.5? I use 3.8 gr BE with the 185 jhp and they easily hold 10 ring at 50 yds. I'm all about less recoil and good enough accuracy to compete with. 2.5" grouping pistol (capable of 1.25" with hotter loads) with soft load will win with less effort than 1.25" grouping pistol with hotter load. Most of us pleasure shooters don't shoot enough to get good at shooting the hotter loads like the AMU boys. 
Jon
avatar
Jon Eulette

Posts : 1969
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by rich.tullo on 9/16/2017, 11:46 am

185 jhp 4/5 inches versus -1.5 inches out of my KC Crawford Wad Cutter from bench and sandbags. that is radical for me I hold the nine ring maybe the ten ring so that is 80's versus 90's SF scores. 

I don't shoot the nosler design because the HPSWC are cheaper and I can load them lighter and I do not see any difference in accuracy maybe 1/4 inch maybe not.  Magnus 801 are very accurate too but I give a slight edge to the swagged HPSWC. 

I shoot 3.8/3.9 BE 185gn HPSWC and I do not see any difference in scores and accuracy as compared to 4.5 185gn JHP. $3.7 is a little less accurate at 50 yards but it will still hold the 10 ring no problem.


Last edited by rich.tullo on 9/16/2017, 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
avatar
rich.tullo

Posts : 922
Join date : 2015-03-27

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by Jon Eulette on 9/16/2017, 11:48 am

That's pretty horrible. I'll try and get mine Ransomed for comparison.
Jon
avatar
Jon Eulette

Posts : 1969
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by rich.tullo on 9/16/2017, 1:05 pm

I will note when I had KC build my gun I sent him my ammo and he built it around a HP SWC 185 swagged bullets at just a hair under 3.9 Bullseye. I hand loaded the bullets all new brass, identical case length all the same weight bullets and powder charges. 

Could be Nosler style is not optimal for my gun but I did not think 5.0 W231 which runs about as fast as 4.1 BE would not group. Holds the x ring at 25 yards.

Next year once I have some money and I make expert which I am only a 900 away, I will shoot irons and light loads maybe 3.5 BE or less. I am also thinking about getting a Marvel long slide or a Benelli MP90 to shoot international and my leagues with irons.
avatar
rich.tullo

Posts : 922
Join date : 2015-03-27

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by mikemyers on 9/16/2017, 2:31 pm

Regarding "radically less accurate", just to be sure, are we saying the groups opened up, or that the grouping is no longer where it used to be?  

As a follow-up, if people here have suggested that a specific load is recommended, does that apply to ALL shooters using ANY gun with that loading, or does this vary from person to person, and gun to gun?  

It would also be helpful (at least for me to understand) to know what is meant by terms such as "radically" or "slightly", etc.  

(If everyone here understands this except for me, ignore my question.  Maybe I just need a lot more experience.)
avatar
mikemyers

Posts : 922
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 74
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down

Not so easy...

Post by Dipnet on 9/16/2017, 5:04 pm

Well, should have be specific; the load change was from 4.7 to 4.5 N310 with Zero JHP. Not much of a change. dipnet
avatar
Dipnet

Posts : 132
Join date : 2014-06-09
Location : Gainesville, Florida

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by rich.tullo on 9/16/2017, 5:54 pm

Dipnet wrote:Well, should have be specific; the load change was from 4.7 to 4.5 N310 with Zero JHP. Not much of a change. dipnet
Groups, I average +90 on the line with the 45acp and I know after 3 shots if I need to adjust my Zero.
avatar
rich.tullo

Posts : 922
Join date : 2015-03-27

Back to top Go down

Re: It's that easy!

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum