My nelson finally failed.

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My nelson finally failed.

Post by zanemoseley on 8/12/2017, 6:01 pm

Aside from a few stovepipes here and there my Nelson has run great for probably close to 10,000 rounds. Today during practice after about 150 rounds it failed to extract, the casing had been pulled about 1/2 way out of the chamber then stuck. The slide was stuck solid, I couldn't budge it.

So I figured I better get the conversion off the lower. I tried to loosen the rod and it was very tight. I really got worried when the resistance persisted, usually once you break it loose it gets easy to turn. I get the conversion off and have no option but to get the rod out so I can remove the slide. The rod has resistance the whole time while turning. Then I noticed the rod is getting scarred as it comes out. I had no option but keep turning, by time I got it off there was a nice corkscrew shaped scar all the way up the rod. Then once it was unscrewed all the way I still couldn't remove it, the spring also wouldn't come off, I had to have my buddy pull on the spring while I turned the rod. At this point I realize the spring some how got stuck around the front of the rod which locked up the conversion and was stuck so good the spring scarred the rod when backing the rod out.

So am I the only one lucky enough to have this happen. Need to call Larry Monday. The funny thing is I was just thinking today how reliable this conversion has been, guess I jinxed it.

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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by jglenn21 on 8/12/2017, 6:09 pm

seen it once on a cut spring where the cut area was not squared off or  sanded flat.. pointed section of the spring caught in the rod hole on the slide... could be your rod hole is worn to the point where a std. spring is now catching???

Nelson sells the rod online BTW
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by Sa-tevp on 8/12/2017, 7:39 pm

My S&W M41 had the same failure, the slide trapped the spring against the spring guide. After replacing the spring and guide I made it a practice to flare the end of the spring to fit in the slide.
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by LenV on 8/12/2017, 10:47 pm

Sa-tevp wrote:My S&W M41 had the same failure, the slide trapped the spring against the spring guide. After replacing the spring and guide I made it a practice to flare the end of the spring to fit in the slide.
+1 on having it happen on the 41. I just had to turn my spring around after spending about an hour on the guide.
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by Jon Eulette on 8/12/2017, 11:47 pm

I've seen several conversions get their recoil rods eaten up from recoil spring. I think there is an issue with the hole diameter in the slide. I've never measured it but have a gut feeling its allowing the spring end to partially pinch between rod and slide. I had one eat up my guide rod. I now polish the heck out of my guude rods and debur the spring end. I know some one who had to make a sleeve/bushing for his conversion because it ate the slide.
Jon
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by zanemoseley on 8/13/2017, 3:56 pm

Well I inspected the back side of the recoil guide hole in the slide and it was scarred up pretty good, it even pulled away a sliver of aluminum. Larry contacted me before I could even wait for Monday, I have no doubt he will take care of me. I asked him about possibly replacing the slide as I feel the damaged reecoil guide hole may lead to more issues down the road.

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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by rich.tullo on 8/20/2017, 6:47 pm

I change my Springs every 5000 rounds or so. Happened to me on Marvel, I caught it when I put the gun together after cleaning so it was not an issue. I too polish my guide rods with 2000 and then 3000 grit sand paper.

 I also Oil my guide rods. If you look most of the guide rods have witness marks and rub in that hole. 

I got 25000 rounds on one and 15000 rounds on an other and they work great. I shot a 95 with a 5 with one tumble at on the long line. This week I had to tweak the extractor because I was getting tumbling bullets and flyers but now they are GTG again. 

I am going to try GSG mags to see if they are a little easier on the extractor. 

RT
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by zanemoseley on 8/20/2017, 6:55 pm

Well Rich if you think replacing the spring once a year or so will prevent issues I'll give it a shot. 

My conversion went back to Nelson last week but haven't heard back from them yet. I hope they replace the slide as I felt like the back edge of the recoil rod hole has some significant wear on it.

I'm curious how you're getting tumbling bullets and flyers from a bad extractor, seems like they wouldn't be related.


Last edited by zanemoseley on 8/21/2017, 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by rich.tullo on 8/21/2017, 6:05 am

Yes I definitely think replacing the spring helps.
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by Jon Eulette on 8/21/2017, 7:00 am

Extractor causing "tumbling bullets and flyers?
Sorry Rich, doesn't work that way. 
Jon
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by Tim:H11 on 8/21/2017, 7:57 am

Rich - the extractor has nothing to do with a bullet being causing to not stabilize or tumble. When the round is in the chamber and fired there's not anything the extractor could do to effect the way the bullet travels down the bore or exits the barrel. The extractors job is to hang on to the spent cartridge casing as the slide or bolt retracts so the spent cartridge casing can come into contact with the ejector properly for the ejector to do its job.

Once the cartridge is in the chamber the extractor has pretty much nothing to do with how it's held in the chamber or fired and in turn has no impact on the bullets travel down the bore or flight.
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by rich.tullo on 8/21/2017, 8:07 am

Tim:H11 wrote:Rich - the extractor has nothing to do with a bullet being causing to not stabilize or tumble. When the round is in the chamber and fired there's not anything the extractor could do to effect the way the bullet travels down the bore or exits the barrel. The extractors job is to hang on to the spent cartridge casing as the slide or bolt retracts so the spent cartridge casing can come into contact with the ejector properly for the ejector to do its job.

Once the cartridge is in the chamber the extractor has pretty much nothing to do with how it's held in the chamber or fired and in turn has no impact on the bullets travel down the bore or flight.
Not the ejector in the front that mates with the barrel the extractor that strips the bullet from the magazine. When it is not adjusted right it causes the cartridge to nose when feeding damaging the bullet tip. Over time they get out of adjustment. 

Do not believe me? Load a mag, rack the slide, drop the mag, eject the round and look at the bullet tip. If it's damaged enough it will tumble a small mark on the lube coating will not affect accuracy much.
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by Jon Eulette on 8/21/2017, 8:18 am

Sorry but still won't tumble. Deformed bullet tips on .22 from feeding don't tumble. If they did 99% of the pistols would have keyholed shots. Believe me I fix feeding issues on many conversions and High Standards and have intentionally shot defirmed bullets. They will not tumble. 
Jon
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by rich.tullo on 8/21/2017, 9:05 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Sorry but still won't tumble. Deformed bullet tips on .22 from feeding don't tumble. If they did 99% of the pistols would have keyholed shots. Believe me I fix feeding issues on many conversions and High Standards and have intentionally shot defirmed bullets. They will not tumble. 
Jon
What could cause it? I had 40% of my shots tumble last Thursday including a 5 on 91 2x on my long lone and 5 on a 95 2x on my short line that were not to call and 100% of the bullets tumbled. 

I cleaned the barrel but it was not leaded or carbon fouled still had tumbles. Adjusted the extractor,  no fouling or major damage with CCI SV or Aquilla some damage with GECO and one or two the bullets on the target looked like small pin holes they did not group as well and I got a FTF. Prior to adjusting the extractor I had some pretty damaged bullets with deep crescent shaped cuts now they don't exist or are faint. 

The crown looks good and the barrel looks good. 

Lubbing the bullets by putting them in a plastic bag and dropping 4 or 5 drops of lucas oil seemed to have no damage on CCI and Aquilla and still had little on the GECO. 

So my question is if is not the barrel, the rifling or the crown what could cause tumbling? I think the lube would not help accuracy? Headspacing? Am I only noticing it now because I am shooting well?
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by jglenn21 on 8/21/2017, 9:29 am

is this on a Marvel?

aluminum or steel slide
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by Jon Eulette on 8/21/2017, 9:46 am

Hmmm. Strange. In my experience with .22's they can be fired in battery, partially out of battery, sloppy loose chamber, match chamber, too deep of chamber, worn out eroded throat, etc. No tumbled bullets. Would also still hold 10 ring. Muzzle/crown is typically culprit for keyholed or tumbled shots or flyers. Even conversions that recoil rod is loose the shots are not tumbled. I also don't know what you could've done to the extractor to make a difference? It's only function is to pull case out of the chamber. I would have barrel re-crowned.
Jon
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by LenV on 8/21/2017, 10:12 am

One question. Do you have a muzzle brake or silencer?
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by Tim:H11 on 8/21/2017, 10:18 am

rich.tullo wrote:
Tim:H11 wrote:Rich - the extractor has nothing to do with a bullet being causing to not stabilize or tumble. When the round is in the chamber and fired there's not anything the extractor could do to effect the way the bullet travels down the bore or exits the barrel. The extractors job is to hang on to the spent cartridge casing as the slide or bolt retracts so the spent cartridge casing can come into contact with the ejector properly for the ejector to do its job.

Once the cartridge is in the chamber the extractor has pretty much nothing to do with how it's held in the chamber or fired and in turn has no impact on the bullets travel down the bore or flight.
Not the ejector in the front that mates with the barrel the extractor that strips the bullet from the magazine. When it is not adjusted right it causes the cartridge to nose when feeding damaging the bullet tip. Over time they get out of adjustment. 

Do not believe me? Load a mag, rack the slide, drop the mag, eject the round and look at the bullet tip. If it's damaged enough it will tumble a small mark on the lube coating will not affect accuracy much.

It's not that I don't believe you it's that I think you're looking to the wrong place for your solution. I've had malfunctions and mis-feeds before in other guns where the 22 bullet is bent upward away from the cartridge casing. The bullet nose is damaged, the casing may be slightly wallared out some but I've bent the bullet straight again and stuck that sucker back in there and shot it. Did not tumble. I've never shot a 22 pistol old or new, and have bullets tumble for any reason. Like Jon said bore and crown need a good look see. 

Don't believe me? I'll take a pocket knife to some lead and shoot it to prove it if you'd like. 
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by rich.tullo on 8/21/2017, 10:24 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Hmmm. Strange. In my experience with .22's they can be fired in battery, partially out of battery, sloppy loose chamber, match chamber, too deep of chamber, worn out eroded throat, etc. No tumbled bullets. Would also still hold 10 ring. Muzzle/crown is typically culprit for keyholed or tumbled shots or flyers. Even conversions that recoil rod is loose the shots are not tumbled. I also don't know what you could've done to the extractor to make a difference? It's only function is to pull case out of the chamber. I would have barrel re-crowned.
Jon
By extractor I mean the the long piece of polished steel on the barrel that strips the bullet of the mag not the piece on the slide that ejects the bullet upon firing.
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by rich.tullo on 8/21/2017, 10:30 am

I believe you, I am thinking about sending the Gun to sams and get the Barrel relined.
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by Jon Eulette on 8/21/2017, 11:19 am

That's the disconnector rail. Screw can break/shear that holds breech block in. I wouldn't reline it unless your hammering out master scores; very expensive. Simple recrown might be all it needs.
Jon
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Nelsons

Post by rich.tullo on 8/21/2017, 11:26 am

Close to it 840s
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by Jon Eulette on 8/21/2017, 11:29 am

880's!
Smile
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by rich.tullo on 8/21/2017, 11:31 am

Ok recrown and check the breach
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Re: My nelson finally failed.

Post by Jon Eulette on 8/21/2017, 11:35 am

I have a friend who recently recrowned 2 Nelson barrels and groups shrunk in half.
Keep us posted Rich.
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