Not Claiming an Alibi?

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Not Claiming an Alibi?

Post by Jon Math on 8/16/2017, 7:10 am

I had a failure to fire on the next to last round of a match.  The round before it ejected correctly and the bolt came back into battery, the trigger seemed to have weight when I released it but nothing happened.  I was not sure if I had a dud round or a broken a firing pin so I did not ask for an alibi. I figured if the gun had stopped and I could not shoot any of the alibi shots I’d be deducting more points than the 20 points I had already lost with the two unfired shots.  Was that a sound decision, or am I misunderstanding how alibi rounds are scored?
Additionally, was I violating a rule when I cleared the pistol on my own at the end of the timed event?
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Re: Not Claiming an Alibi?

Post by zanemoseley on 8/16/2017, 7:16 am

To claim an alibi you cannot attempt to fix the pistol. In this case if you got 3 shots off, if you had claimed an alibi you would have shot an alibi sting of 5 additional shots. So you would have 13 total shots on paper, you would lose the best 3 shots and keep the 10 worst. I would have left the pistol alone and claimed an alibi.

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Re: Not Claiming an Alibi?

Post by Jon Math on 8/16/2017, 7:32 am

But if the pistol did not fire when I attempted the alibi shots (firing pin was broken) what would I have lost?
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Re: Not Claiming an Alibi?

Post by dronning on 8/16/2017, 7:48 am

I would call for the alibi and after the official OK's it then determine if my gun was functional, if you attempt to clear or even touch your gun before an official OK's the alibi the alibi will be refused.
Even if you raise your hand for the malfunction and the official OK's an alibi you have time to inspect your gun to determine if you can shoot the alibi or accept rounds already fired.  
- Dave
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Re: Not Claiming an Alibi?

Post by Jon Math on 8/16/2017, 8:01 am

dronning wrote:I would call for the alibi and after the official OK's it then determine if my gun was functional, if you attempt to clear or even touch your gun before an official OK's the alibi the alibi will be refused.
Even if you raise your hand for the malfunction and the official OK's an alibi you have time to inspect your gun to determine if you can shoot the alibi or accept rounds already fired.  
- Dave

That's what I was misunderstanding--I do have the option to decline an accepted alibi.
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Re: Not Claiming an Alibi?

Post by CR10X on 8/16/2017, 8:01 am

Here is the best I can do.  

Taking the string as fired would result in at least 2 misses, taking the alibi with no shots fired on the refire string results in at least 5 misses, taking the alibi with 5 shots fired and in the scoring rings and assuming the other 8 are in the scoring rings results in NO misses.   See below. 

Assuming you got off 5 rounds on the first string of the last target and 3 rounds on the second string, you would be going into the refire string with a total of 8 shots to be scored on your target.  At this point, if you choose to not refire, (accepting the strings as fired and not exercising any refiring privileges) you will be down at least 20 points (2 misses).  The scorer will be looking for 10 holes as you are, without taking the alibi / refire privilege, responsible for 10 shots. If all the other shots are on the target, the scorer will have 8 holes to score and assign 2 misses on the scorecard. 

Assuming you were eligible for the refire string, that is you did not attempt to clear the gun and were allowed the alibi, you would be eligible to shoot a 5 round refire string. 

Once you elect to take the refire string, that is load the gun and assume the firing position, do not stop the refire string at the command "Is the line ready", and attempt to fire the gun when the targets turn, you are committed to the alibi string.  The general consensus is that when the shooter attempts to fire the pistol, they have reached the point of "no return" for the alibi string.  However, a couple of people have expressed the opinion that once you loaded the gun at the command to load you were committed to the refire string.  

(These options were discussed with certain refs and in general the first scenario was considered more appropriate.  I can see both sides on this one, as the shooter does not have to shoot and can say they don't want to shoot up until the first shot is attempted; but it's also hard to tell if the shooter tried to pull the trigger and and the gun just did not fire then the shooter decides to say they deferred the refire string.  At some point we have trust that the shooter is being honest. But if the hammer falls....) 

After accepting the refire privilege, (if scoring after 2 five shots string for standard match - some reduce distance matches will score after one 5 shot string normally), the shooter is responsible for 5 shots on the string without the alibi, number of shots fired that left the barrel on the string that had the alibi and 5 shots for the refire string.  This is important to remember, since the shooter can have issues on the other string in the match.  Its not just the lowest 10 on the target, its the lowest 10 of all shots the shooter is responsible for for those strings. There can be additional saved rounds, second alibis, misses, late shots, etc.) 

In this example, if you did not get off any rounds in the refire string (complete failure of gun, say broken firing pin) you would be scored for the lowest 10 of 13 expected shots (5 + 3 + 5 =13).  Therefore in this example there would only be 8 holes on the paper out of 13 so you would be scored for 5 misses and then the remaining lowest scoring 5 shots of the 8 holes on the target (assuming that the original 8 all hit the paper).  This is what is meant by the scoring the lowest 10 (which includes misses, any shots not fired on the first string, and all 5 rounds, fired or not fired, on the refire string).  

Therefore by taking the refire string and not getting any shots off, you now have at least 5 misses rather than 2.  

On the other hand if you get all 5 alibi string shots off and hit the scoring rings with all fired shots, including the other 8, you would have NO misses.  

And as always,  you can only have one refire per Match. 

Basically you will always be accountable for the 5 shots in the refire string and the other string for that target.  That is one of the reasons why the rules also clarify that after beginning the refire string, or for any string if they choose to lose the refire option, the competitor may attempt to clear the gun, even load additional rounds if done safely and not more that 5 rounds are fired.  

Don't forget you can have an alibi on the first string (say 1 shot off), then only get 1 shot off on the second string (only one refire per match) and then get no shots off on the refire string.  In this case, you are responsible for 1 + 5 + 5 or 11.  You will be scored for the lowest 10 of 11 shots, but there are only 2 holes (hopefully) on the target, so you get 9 misses and the lowest scoring hit on the target for score.  

The above applies unless of course you get lucky and have a range alibi during a refire string which creates another whole mess to untangle.

CR


Last edited by CR10X on 8/18/2017, 9:35 am; edited 7 times in total

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Re: Not Claiming an Alibi?

Post by Jon Math on 8/16/2017, 9:17 am

Thank you!!
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Re: Not Claiming an Alibi?

Post by jmdavis on 8/16/2017, 9:53 am

If your gun is broken and unfireable, say a broken firing pin, blown extractor etc. You can get the RO to call it disabled and use a different gun, if you have or can borrow one,  to complete the stage.
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Re: Not Claiming an Alibi?

Post by CR10X on 8/16/2017, 4:00 pm

Or if your gun is declared disabled, you can use a different gun on the refire string.

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Re: Not Claiming an Alibi?

Post by dronning on 8/17/2017, 10:21 pm

CFPlinker wrote:How does the part of Rule 10.10 that says unfired shots in the alibi string are scored as misses come into play. Wouldn't the shooter be scored for 5 misses on the alibi string, Now because the shooter was allowed a 13 shot alibi the best 3 shots on the target are disregarded and the remaining 5 in this example are scored.

Even if you are allowed an alibi you aren't committing to the alibi, you can decide against shooting the alibi and accept the target as it stands.  
- Dave
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Re: Not Claiming an Alibi?

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