Anticipating recoil.

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Anticipating recoil.

Post by Mike38 on Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

Is there a sure fire way to rid one's self of anticipating recoil with the .45? I think I'm getting worse instead of better. Maybe someone can give me that one bit of advice that I have yet to try and it will cure this slump I'm in. I'm shooting near Expert scores with the .22 in training today, but couldn't break 700 with the .45 if my life depended on it. Toss the advise out there, verbally abuse me if necessary, I can take it, I need it. Thank you.
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by Jon Eulette on Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:43 pm

mikemyers wrote:Oleg, that would be wonderful for precision, but not too good for accuracy.  I shoot at many different targets, large, small, even a page full of small "dots" every so often.  The 6-o'clock hold isn't good for that.
Little itty bitty targets make shooters focus on the target! With a red dot not a big deal. With irons a new shooter will struggle because they haven't learned how to really stay focused on the front sight. I always reinforce proper target for the distance being shot for newer shooters. It doesn't matter if you've been shooting 50 yrs, if you are new to bullseye type shooting you are new!
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by Mike38 on Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:46 pm

mikemyers wrote:I think that most Bullseye shooters keep their front sight dull black.  A dull black front sight in front of a black bull makes it difficult.  Any advice on how to improve that?  What am I missing??


Do you use a center hold? Try six-o'clock hold, or sub six hold. Or, put a "Gip" on the front sight.
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by mikemyers on Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:16 pm

I couldn't agree more.  The better you get at the fundamentals, the better you will shoot.  

I don't believe you "learn the fundamentals" and then you're done.  I think learning them is a life-long procedure, and the more you learn, the better you shoot, and as you're shooting more you find there's (always) more to learn.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I read and listen to the "experts" talking about they are constantly practicing, and trying to get even better.

Learning the concept of the fundamentals is easy - pick up a book, and read.  Applying them is yet another story.

(Oleg, what you wrote I'm sure is true for a Bullseye competitor, but personally, that's not my goal.  I'm a target shooter (since the 1980's), who is trying to learn as much as possible to become a better shooter.  There are many things to learn, but this seems to be a great start, and this forum is worth its weight in gold.  "The Pistol Shooter's Treasury" gives two options for hold, and for people who don't see that well, recommends 6-o'clock.  Nowadays, I'd get a red dot sight, and eventually maybe I'll do so.  For now, I want to get both accuracy and precision, at whatever I'm aiming at.  Last thought - reading here is NOT enough; it takes a LOT of practice to get to where I'm actually close to doing what I've read here.   As I saw it, my single biggest problem with the 1911 was anticipation, and I doubt I'd have cured it on my own....)
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by mikemyers on Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:50 pm

Confused - what is a "Gip" ?
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by mikemyers on Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:14 pm

Someone in the forum just sent me a PM, and the way he phrased it, I realize that if nothing else, I should at least try the 6-o'clock hold.  I expect it to work out just as all of you predict, and I expect that I'll be shooting the Les Baer that way from now on.  Will see.

Sorry for being a dork...   I'm trying to learn this stuff, but you guys already know it.  So, next time I'm at the range, I'll change the elevation on my sights, and try it out.

It's fine with me if the person who sent the PM copies what he wrote me into this discussion.  He pushed me over the edge, and I wish I could try this in the next few days, but it's probably going to have to wait until I get back from India.  If the target I shot on blank paper is what I'm maybe going to get in the future, wow!

I was thinking "but I shoot all my guns at many different things"...   I guess for now, I can settle for just a B-8 target.   I think I'll be much happier with the targets.   Shocked

Again, thanks!!
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by rreid on Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:54 pm

mikemyers wrote:Confused - what is a "Gip" ?

I don't know if it's what Mike was talking about, but I always put a small Mark or scratch on the front sight. Not something huge like the fiber optic or white dot type front sights, just something you really have to focus on to see. Just because the target is blurry doesn't mean you're focused on the front sight. You could be focused halfway between the target and the front sight.
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by Mike38 on Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:42 am

mikemyers wrote:Confused - what is a "Gip" ?


https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide/shot-gip-weird-2-cent-trick-precision-pistol/
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by mikemyers on Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:30 am

CR10X wrote:........... There are pages and pages of notes in my journal on this issue and its one of the things I keep going back to.  Even today, I can trace a lot of my "not optimum" shots to being too aware of the trigger and trying to make the shot go off rather than just starting over.  If you have any specific questions or comments, I'd like to  help or listen to anything that might help me........
Any advice for the following.   When I'm dry-firing, my hands behave properly, and I'm trying to follow the suggestions for "area aiming", meaning if the wobble of the red dot is in an area that represents my ability, I can smoothly fire anytime - rather than waiting for the dot to be in some optimum place.  However, at the range, my hands and body seem to "tense up", and I've noticed my hands "twitch" one way or another.  It's like flinching I guess, but it happens when I'm not even ready to fire.  

Two things I'm thinking about.  If I have both arms "straight ahead", locked at the elbows, this seems to be part of the cause - if I relax my arms, it's as if my whole body relaxes.  Instead of a rigid hold, it's like the gun being suspended by heavy duty rubber arms - the gun is where it should be aimed, but not "locked" in place by my whole body.  The other possible cause might be that I just need to relax more, maybe shoot at a piece of white paper again.  Maybe it's just my nerves?

I know this is going on, when "most" of my shots go where I want, but every so often (more so than I want) there is a "wild shot".  Anything in your notes that would deal with this?
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by steve 61 on Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:02 pm

having the same problem, working on slow fire at 25 yards, I can shoot better groups timed but learning the basics. One shot at a time. We have a common problem a stupid trigger finger

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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by mikemyers on Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:09 pm

Since I wrote what I did, two things have changed.  First, I read most of what Ed Hall has posted:

http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/articlesand.html

I also changed the wood grips on my Model 52 to be more like my 1911 (Pachmayr grips for model 39).  Following everyone's advice, I found a way to grip the gun that matches everything "the good guys" say I should do, is comfortable, and is repeatable.  This is for two-hand shooting.  I'm also working on one-hand shooting.  

My "wild shots" seem to be directly proportional to anxiety.  The more calm and relaxed I am, the better.  Dry-firing with no ammos is obviously the most relaxed.  Anyway, the wild shots from the 1911 are getting more rare, but with the M-52 the trigger is so sensitive I still get them - or is it that I'm more relaxed now with the 1911.  

About that stupid trigger finger....     with a lot of dry-fire, doing it many different ways, I eventually found something that feels comfortable and relaxed.  I'm trying to get the finger to do what it does automatically, every time, without thinking about it.  All I can say now, is that it's getting better.  


Something else, but not sure how to say it.  Once the group gets small enough that I can accept it, and the wild shots are rare, I get less concerned, and can do it more easily.  I guess "trying" makes things worse, but "doing" (knowing it will work) makes it easier.  

Cecil can probably explain what I mean much better than I can.......
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by steve 61 on Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:17 pm

being relaxed and concentrating.

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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by CR10X on Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:25 pm

I know a lot of people will probably not see shooting this way, but lets try a different way of trying to produce a consistently acceptable shot process and see if a (different) approach / concept might help.  Or at least get us to thinking about the shot process in a different way.  

Some comments that keep coming up in lots of various forms:

"I can shoot better groups in TF / RF than I can for SF."  "I can't hold still."  "The gun just seems to take off somewhere just as the trigger is starting / finishing / don't know when."  "I think I'm flinching but I don't know."  "I can aim the gun, but it won't stay there."  Etc., etc., etc.

Let's go to the "better group" for TF / RF.  When a shooter is doing this, they need to ask 2 things. What am I seeing and why do I get this result?  (Basically these 2 things apply for all those statements above, but lets start with this one just for an example.)

What are you seeing?  

Are you seeing the dot / front sight / target as a snapshot, just reacting to that single thing (picture in your mind) that you "think" is the right way to shoot a pistol?   Or, can you fire a shot and then take a pencil and draw a trace of the dot / front rear sight picture against the target area and completely describe (draw) the wobble pattern until the time the dot / front sight lifts off the aiming area?  (Basically, how good are you at creating a SCATT trace of your shot from memory?)   Funny thing is, the better you get at seeing the process, the better you will be able to improve the process.

Why is the group better when you take less time (TF / RF string) even when everything seems to be moving more?  

Well, take a look as to how the shot process might be different (even though the shooter might think they are doing the same thing at both lines).  When shooting a slow fire shot, how does the gun approach or get to the minimum wobble area?  Is the shooter just "trying to hold" within the acceptable aiming area, basically just trying to get the gun to "hang" in one place?  Is that the same as what the shooter is doing at the short line for TF / RF?  I bet not.  I'm betting that the shooter is "driving" the gun to the center of aiming area just a little bit more (or maybe a lot more for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th shots?) than at the long line for a single shot.  So think about that at the long line.  Are you just "trying" to hold the gun "still" or are you "driving the gun" to its smallest wobble, towards the center of aiming area?

So, try something when dryfiring.  Use a blank target / wall, get ready to shoot your shot, raise the gun and actively make your wobble go from larger to smaller.  Think of it as a "whirlpool" motion, getting smaller and smaller as the trigger is operated. Not waiting for the gun to "settle" but helping to drive it to the central area (not a point) and get the trigger to operate at the same time. (Remember, this is just one aspect of making a shot, but something that I needed to get used to seeing, others might as well.) (You might find those pesky flyers are somewhat less since more of the muscle / nervous system is now actively involved in physical response to visual feedback process, rather than just "trying to stay still".  Now these are not gross movements, but very minor. 

And how does this relate to "anticipating recoil"?

Well, for me, I can't listen and think at the same time, I can't talk and think at the same time, and I sure can't drink and think at the same time.  So when I'm really focusing on driving the gun to the center of aiming area (again, this is not gross, but very subtle at the long line, less so at the short line) and completing the trigger process as the wobble gets smaller (when driving towards the center of my acceptable area) I really am not even aware of the shot being fired until I see the dot start to life upwards from its previous motion, or the front sight lifting out of the notch (when the shots are good anyway) so anticipation doesn't even come into play.  

The thing is, when anticipation is coming into play, that's the time to abort the shot (I kinda hate that term).  I think I'd rather say that as soon as anticipation starts, or the thought of "when...." even forms in the brain; its time to just shoot ten points the next time and not doing anything this time.  

OK, that's enough for today.  Back to basics.  Break down your good shots into parts.  Seeing, feeling, mental, etc.  Look at each of those and see how it contributed to the good shot.  Reflect on the parts, pick out the ones to train on, then repeat with some others.  (Hint, if there is a bad shot, don't even notice it, much less label it on the target.  It ain't important and just wasted brain / memory space.)

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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by mikemyers on Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:45 pm

I read this three times yesterday, and again today - didn't want to respond until I assimilated it into my way of thinking.  

The part I will consider first, is that which directly relates to me - as I'm holding the gun up, getting ready to shoot, and for "unknown" reasons the sights must move just as I'm about to fire.  

"What am I seeing, and why do I get this result?"


If you ask me after I shoot a target, I wouldn't know.  Heck, if you asked me to number the holes, which came first, I wouldn't know most of them.  From what you write, I should be able to know.  Part of me says that's impossible for me, but another part says I should find a way.  My "answer" (at least what I will try) is to concentrate on only one shot at a time, and try to see what the sights/dot did, and write that down - along with a sketch of the target and where that specific shot went.  I will try to draw the path of the sights/dot.  Drawing the paths of the center of the wobble would be easy - not sure if I can draw the actual wobble - not sure if I can think that fast.   But I can try, maybe tomorrow morning.  With steel sights, it is easier.  The dot has so much more motion.  You say how this can be so helpful - I will try to do just what you wrote.

For now, it will only be slow fire.  


"How does the gun get to the minimum wobble area?"    Not sure if this is what you mean, but when I breath in, grip the gun harder, and have all my fingers and hands where I want them, the "wobble" noticeably diminishes, stays small for a small amount of time, and then gets worse.  There is a "window" when things seem best.  I do this better with the 1911, but I think it's similar for me on every gun.  

I won't be concentrating on a second or third shot for right now.  Once I get the first shot where it should be, I'll move on to the next, and so on.


I've already started doing what you suggested about dry firing.  I figure I need to do that a whole lot more, so it carries over to when the bullet is in the gun.  My "anxiety" in dry firing is close to zero.  Developing good habits help - I know that from other concerns I have had.


Your last few paragraphs are something I want to start doing immediately.  I've been "thinking" about the trigger, and allowing my subconscious to aim the gun.  What you're saying is that if I apply all my concentration to "drive the gun to the center of the aiming area", I won't be able to be anxious about the trigger.  

Thank you Cecil!
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by CR10X on Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:58 pm

"How does the gun get to the minimum wobble area?"

This means the path the sights (dot or front and rear combination) takes or makes as the shot is in progress.  What does it look like is to imprecise.  Is it a oscillating figure 8, excursions just up and down, right and left, great big swoops across the target, etc.  How soon is the minimum wobble attained?  What does it look like as it starts to get bigger?  

Basically get used to how the wobble gets to its smallest and the get the trigger operate then.  If you don't know what it looks like, how can you get the trigger to operate without awareness of when the wobble is approaching the minimum?  Otherwise, a shooter is just "picking off shots" or "waiting for gun to get still" or just "holding too long".  All of which can (will produce) worse shots than what is generally happening in TF and RF for most shooters.  (Not necessarily beginners, but those that can hold the black at 25 yards with most shots.)

So really no need to "think" about either the trigger or the hold.  See the hold and keep the trigger moving as long as wobble is getting smaller.  And my point is that it might help to feel like or try to drive or help the gun move to the center of the aiming area when training in order to understand the visual feedback and feeling of getting the process to come together. So do some dry fire training by making the gun move to the center by zeroing in on it on purpose while actually operating the trigger.  The point of this is to get used to actually operating the trigger as the gun is moving ever so much closer to the optimum area.  That way, when actually firing, the shooter will not have to think about the trigger so much.  Just start it and then watch. 

Words are tough.  Don't concentrate of the shot, just see it and then recall it.  Just like a movie (from the title to the credits).  Don't pick out an instant and you might surprise yourself by actually seeing the dot lift and the muzzle flash as the gun fires. 

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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by mikemyers on Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:04 pm

Last November, I typed an article for Dave Salyer, and posted it for him here in the forum:
http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t8516-area-aiming-by-dave-salyer?highlight=area+aiming

Since I returned to the USA in January, I've been trying to do what Dave suggested.  It definitely helped me do better than before, but there were still those pesky "flyers".  Then I started with the Model-52, and before I could even begin to shoot well, I had to get myself and the gun to act as one.  I'm not there yet, but I'm better.

Dave's philosophy is that instead of aiming at a point, I learn what my "wobble zone" is, place the wobble zone over the bullseye, and ignore specifically where the gun is aiming - if my wobble zone is where it ought to be, the hole should be somewhere within that area, which is limited in accuracy by my ability.  Presumably once I get better, I will get more accurate, the wobble zone will get smaller, and I will do better.


So what I need to be doing to improve my shooting is to continue to follow Dave's advice about "area aiming", but follow what you've written here for every shot I take.  A lot of what you write fits right into what Dave wrote.  Some things are different, or maybe just worded differently.  

To greatly simplify, for me, when your suggestions on avoiding anticipation work for me, there will be far fewer "flyers".  I can follow your advice on "how to shoot", and follow Dave's advice on "how to aim".  


As an aside, I have never, even once, actually seen what happens to the dot or sights as the gun fires. Maybe it's because I'm distracted by the noise and the recoil.  Well, the M-52 has minimal recoil, and maybe I'll drown out the noise of the gun by using my headphones that have an audio input.  Maybe, just maybe, without even realizing it, I'm blinking unintentionally.  Maybe the blinking (if that's what is happening) is because of the anticipation.  I know I used to blink, but I thought I cured it.  Any advice for that?


Back to the range tomorrow morning, to see that your advice and my dry firing made a difference.  For each "live" shot at the range, I'll do five dry-fires, to reinforce what I hope will become a new habit.
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by Wobbley on Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:30 am

Mike: the key here is that your wobble varies in size during your hold. Some people call it the “settle” , but the fact is that at some point the wobble diminishes. It is then you should take the shot. As you practice more you’ll begin to see a pattern. Wobble as big as the black then it settles to maybe the ten ring. You should move the settled area to center if it’s not already theee while moving the trigger. You’ll also notice that after the minimum is reached the wobble quickly enlarges. When that happens abort the shot. Gun down, rest, try again.
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by Oleg G on Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:33 am

Mike,

In support of what Wobbley said, if you haven't already, read this chapter from the AMU Marksmanship Guide on the Miminum Arc of Movement.

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter1.htm

I think that it will tie together David's and Cecil's excellent guidance.

While you're at it, read the entire guide, it's definitely worth it.
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by mspingeld on Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:06 am

Cecil, Correct me if I'm wrong. My takeaway is; (1) Learn to really see the "trace" and, (2) Passive vs active. Rather than waiting for the wobble to settle and trying to catch that moment, make it settle, drive it to center, all  while continuously squeezing the trigger.

Am I getting the gist of it?

(And thanks for all of your posts. There are a handful of contributors here who really communicate in a way that speaks to me. You all are my coaches.)

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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by mikemyers on Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:07 am

Wobbley wrote:........It is then you should take the shot.  As you practice more you’ll begin to see a pattern.  Wobble as big as the black then it settles to maybe the ten ring.  You should move the settled area to center if it’s not already theee while moving the trigger........
As I read things, the biggest difference between what's written above and "area aiming", is that you guys are all suggesting the best time to take a shot.  I'm sure you are correct, and for a good shooter, this will make a big difference.  Area aiming is different, as long as the wobble area is reasonably positioned over the center of the target, you can take the shot any time.  

Dave is saying that the wobble area represents my ability to control the gun, and for that day and time, and how I am feeling right then, that represents my ability.  I shouldn't wait for "a perfect shot" to tell me when to shoot - if my wobble area is reasonably over the target, I can shoot any time.  ....and if I do wait, by the time the gun fires, it will no longer be at that perfect position.

I used to wait for the dot/sights to be over the center of the bullseye, but for reasons Dave explained, my target holes were all over the place, but none were in the center.  Doing it Dave's way, there will be a mathematical distribution of holes over the target, and due to statistics, the majority will be close to the center.




I will pay more attention to this, and see what is happening to my "wobble area".   But my own question, relates to the fact that ALL of this depends on whether I'm home dry-firing, or at the range with a live round ready to fire.  The biggest problem Cecil has suggested a cure for, for me, is how to get rid of the anticipation, which is what is messing up what might otherwise have been a better shot.  

Anticipation.   Without it, as in shooting at home, my gun does what I want it to, within my physical ability to hold it steady.  I want everything to be like that when I'm at the range.

My problem today is not how to reduce the wobble area; it is how to reduce the anticipation, which is what is changing my wobble area, or worse. Once that is done, I can do more of what you are all suggesting.


Example - if I forgot my glasses and when I got to the range, I put on some non-prescription shooting glasses, nothing I remember about how to use steel sights would matter, as I wouldn't be able to see the sights.  Vision would be the immediate problem, and without fixing it, nothing else matters.  Substitute anticipation for vision.  Try and picture what anticipation, in any of its forms, will do to the ability to shoot well.
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by Aprilian on Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:50 am

Mike, are you anticipating with the .22 too?   

I have gone back to strictly working with the .22 to reinforce the habit of firing without any anticipation (which yielded my best practice TF score yet).   When winter ends here and I get to fire outdoors again, I plan to fire limited .45 shots until I see my technique deteriorate, then pack up the wadcutter.  This plan matches with what one of the local shooters advised me about practicing.  His recommendation was to always practice with the .22 first.  It is most like shooting a match and it should feel closer to dry firing practice for the CF guns.

What I have discovered, is that my.45 shots where I am executing the trigger slowly can sometimes go off without me "anticipating" or expecting the shot to break.   When I am anticipating, I find I have often tightened my grip and then jerked the trigger to get it over with.   

My limited Marksman experience is that the trigger moving smoothly and CONTINUALLY is where I should focus as the "stalling" of the trigger is something we new precision shooters are not catching in our understanding of our live fire. 

I wonder if you are reinforcing your bad habit by continually shooting through it?  I have been working with Ed's suggested progression on trigger control here.

Best of luck
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by CR10X on Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:53 am

My takeaway is; (1) Learn to really see the "trace" and, (2) Passive vs active. Rather than waiting for the wobble to settle and trying to catch that moment, make it settle, drive it to center, all  while continuously squeezing the trigger.

In general Yes, (and I would have phrased it "(2) Active vs Passive approach when training"  and "driving" is a strong word, but gets the point across. 

BUT......

First, train on this first concept while dry firing.  See the trace and help make is smaller if you can without over correcting and continuously operating the trigger.  (Isn't this is kinda what shooters should be doing for TF / RF anyway, getting the wobble back to the center and getting the shot off at the same time, not just waiting until it gets there?) 

I get tired of people trying to "hold" still rather than finding the "smallest" wobble and not screwing that up.  That might be one of the biggest issues getting from Marksman / Sharpshooter / Expert to Master.  The gun might appear "still" for an instant and that promotes jerking, but the small wobble last long enough for a smooth continuous trigger process. 

This training gives the shooter a chance to help combine visual feedback (seeing the trace) and sight alignment with seeing the wobble getting smaller (towards the center) while operating (completing) the trigger.  If this was just open sights, I'd say see the sight alignment and ignore the sight picture.  But that darn dot moving around is really distracting and we need to train on how to accept and handle that little LED rascal. The trinity of getting an acceptable shot at the optimum conditions. If you must, only "think" about one of these at a time when training (trace, trigger, driving to center).  When shooting, don't think, just shoot and be aware of what you are seeing and feeling.  

Eventually, anticipation will be overwhelmed or displaced by just seeing.  (Basically a shot should be aborted even before anticipation happens....)

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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by mikemyers on Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:13 pm

Aprilian wrote:Mike, are you anticipating with the .22 too?   

I have gone back to strictly working with the .22 to reinforce the habit of firing without any anticipation (which yielded my best practice TF score yet).....
Haven't shot the 22 since last year, but yes, I had the same issue with anticipation.

Interesting - by following Cecil's advice, and concentrating so hard on the sights (while gripping the gun the way I have learned, like the 1911) I didn't have any time or energy for "anticipation".  I shot four targets, all but the last with 10 rounds.  Keeping my mind occupied on what I was doing precluded any extra thoughts.

I took 10 bullets, and loaded one at a time into the magazine.  I totally concentrated on the front sight, to the exclusion of everything else.  I don't know what part of the bullseye it was over, as the bull was blurry, and all I "saw" was the sights.  To reinforce this, after every shot I looked to see where the hole was, and marked it on a small circle I drew on a piece of paper.  (That worked fine until I got six or seven holes, and then I was losing track of which was which.)


  • The first target was done griping the gun the way I've been doing with the new grips.  Score was 91 with 2X.  
  • Second target was shot gripping the gun the way I've been told works better on an M-52, gripping twice as hard, with my right hand "twisting" CCW and my left hand "twisting" CW, as if to put the top of the gun in a clamp.  Score was 96.
  • Third target was done the same as the second, to see if I could repeat it.  Score was 96.
  • My fourth target was only 9 rounds, gripping the gun much tighter.  The gun was shaking so badly, I gave up on that.  One round was going to outer space, but the other 8 were forming an even tighter group.  


Comparing the four targets, it looks like I'm not gripping the gun the same way for each, but the reality is that I'm reloading after every shot, so that can't be what's going on.  Maybe a lot more dry firing will help.

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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by mikemyers on Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:22 pm

CR10X wrote:
.......First, train on this first concept while dry firing.  See the trace and help make is smaller if you can without over correcting and continuously operating the trigger.....I get tired of people trying to "hold" still rather than finding the "smallest" wobble and not screwing that up......

Eventually, anticipation will be overwhelmed or displaced......
Translated into what I think the first part means for me, it is doing "area aiming" only after the blur is smallest.  Makes complete sense.  The second idea I am already experiencing.  Now it sounds "obvious" to me.  It sure wasn't before Cecil posted all the advice above.  You can't stop the anticipation, but you can replace it with something more useful!   :-)
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by Founder on Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:48 pm

Dryfiring is an exceptional tool to mitigate anticipation.

When the mind expects "click" but gets "bang" the mind wasn't trying to anticipate anything.
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

Post by Aprilian on Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:07 pm

mikemyers wrote:
Aprilian wrote:Mike, are you anticipating with the .22 too?   

I have gone back to strictly working with the .22 to reinforce the habit of firing without any anticipation (which yielded my best practice TF score yet).....
Haven't shot the 22 since last year, but yes, I had the same issue with anticipation.
mikemyers wrote:Is there a sure fire way to rid one's self of anticipating recoil with the .45? I think I'm getting worse instead of better. Maybe someone can give me that one bit of advice that I have yet to try and it will cure this slump I'm in. I'm shooting near Expert scores with the .22 in training today, but couldn't break 700 with the .45 if my life depended on it. Toss the advise out there, verbally abuse me if necessary, I can take it, I need it. Thank you.

Mike, there is a reason the USMC workbook has shooters master the .22 first.   http://www.ssppl.org/pdfs/usmcpistolteamworkbook.pdf

If you think of anticipation in terms a mental concern of "something is going to happen which i'm not comfortable with", then you want to work through that mental block with whichever platform has the least recoil and noise, which would be the .22.   If you find you aren't worried about the noise or recoil of the .22 but still feel your shot execution is bad, then I might suggest you ask about "flinch", "snatching", "jerking" or any other physical technique related to releasing the shot, no matter the platform.
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Re: Anticipating recoil.

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