Mantisx or Targetize

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Mantisx or Targetize

Post by Kermit Workman on 8/28/2017, 12:50 pm

There are a couple of Shot Analyzers on the market. They are the Mantisx and Targetize. I was wondering if anyone has experience and what they think of them for Bullseye? They are priced around $120-160 dollars. They appear to do about the same as the more expensive ones.

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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by Magload on 8/28/2017, 12:54 pm

I have a MantisX it is a lot easier to use then my Scatt.  It give me all the data I need but I need to use it more.  Don
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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by zanemoseley on 8/28/2017, 1:06 pm

Magload wrote:I have a MantisX it is a lot easier to use then my Scatt.  It give me all the data I need but I need to use it more.  Don
How do you have it mounted to your pistol? I see it usually uses the accessory rail which pretty much no bullseye 1911 has. Says you can use it for live fire. Might be nice to watch the progress of your flinch over time.

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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by desben on 8/28/2017, 1:08 pm

Mantis is present on this board and listened to the feedback from bullseye shooters. +1 for them.

See this thread:
http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t6498-new-dry-fire-system-scatt-alternative
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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by Magload on 8/28/2017, 1:52 pm

zanemoseley wrote:
Magload wrote:I have a MantisX it is a lot easier to use then my Scatt.  It give me all the data I need but I need to use it more.  Don
How do you have it mounted to your pistol? I see it usually uses the accessory rail which pretty much no bullseye 1911 has. Says you can use it for live fire. Might be nice to watch the progress of your flinch over time.
I have several ways to mount it depending on the pistol I am shooting.  The best mount so far has been the one that mounts to the bottom of the mag but i have ones that mount to the scope tube.  I have the one from Scatt that fits in the muzzle and have made a conversion to use it with the MantisX.  Don
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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by zanemoseley on 8/28/2017, 1:55 pm

I saw the one that mounts to the magazine. Don't 1911 magazines wiggle just a bit though?

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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by Magload on 8/28/2017, 2:00 pm

Well they do but wiggle but I wobble a lot more.  I have not seen that to be a problem. The wiggle my wobble is a big problem. Don
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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by Jack H on 8/28/2017, 2:37 pm

I asked this on the previous Mantisx thread and never saw a reply.
How would a device mounted on the heel of the gun give you results the same significance as when mounted at the muzzle?

Wouldn't the device detect more movement in sight alignment when attached at the muzzle vs detecting more wobble (arm motion) when attached at the mag or really near the rear.
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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by ChipEck on 8/28/2017, 6:08 pm

Jack H wrote:I asked this on the previous Mantisx thread and never saw a reply.
How would a device mounted on the heel of the gun give you results the same significance as when mounted at the muzzle?

Wouldn't the device detect more movement in sight alignment when attached at the muzzle vs detecting more wobble (arm motion) when attached at the mag or really near the rear.
+1
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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by Oleg G on 8/28/2017, 6:15 pm

Jack, I actually found a response from Austin to your question on the 3rd page of the original thread:

MantisAustin
Jack H wrote:


How would a device mounted on the heel of the gun give you results the same significance as when mounted at the muzzle?

Since the gun is a solid device throughout, and since we look at acceleration (rather than velocity), and gyroscopic movement (angles), the positioning doesn't matter.  Physics works in our favor!
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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by Jack H on 8/28/2017, 6:24 pm

But the gun and the arm combination are not solid.  A moving arm is different than a moving muzzle and maybe not measurable the same with the device.. 

I would be convinced only if a device were on the muzzle and another on the mag for comparison.
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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by Boris_La on 8/28/2017, 10:41 pm

Jack H wrote:But the gun and the arm combination are not solid.  A moving arm is different than a moving muzzle and maybe not measurable the same with the device.. 

I would be convinced only if a device were on the muzzle and another on the mag for comparison.
Since gun is a solid device, I would not think that muzzle will move separate from the grip. Legs/distance and the movement vectors will be different, but absolute acceleration will be measurable the same.

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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by LenV on 8/28/2017, 11:09 pm

Hmmm. Yes and no. A golf club is a solid object. The head does not move separate from the grip but acceleration is not the same. It is true that you could figure out the head speed and direction by taking your measurements on the grip end of the shaft but it would not be the best way to do it.
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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by Boris_La on 8/28/2017, 11:41 pm

LenV wrote:Hmmm. Yes and no. A golf club is a solid object. The head does not move separate from the grip but acceleration is not the same. It is true that you could figure out the head speed and direction by taking your measurements on the grip end of the shaft but it would not be the best way to do it.
I don't see it a good example unless you use your golf club to point at something and registering its movement. During the typical golf action its very different object.
Golf club is very flexible compared to pistol. It may be viewed as a separate head and grip connected with a long spring. It flexes and vibrates along its shaft much more then a short, rigid handgun. Its springy properties allows for difference between grip/handle and head movements.

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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by Jack H on 8/29/2017, 12:00 am

I'm thinking some don't get my point.  If you see (and call, of course) your front sight dart to the left in relation to the rear sight, that motion has to be different, maybe larger, than a move at the grip or even a whole arm movement.  Comparing muzzle to grip, think that angular thing.
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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by LenV on 8/29/2017, 12:17 am

Two things made me choose a golf club for this analogy. There is a lot of electronics out there designed to measure head speed, head angle, ball flight and trajectory. Also like a pistol parts of each are held above and below the fulcrum point. A pistol fired from a machine rest does not really have a fulcrum point but one fired from hand does. Of course if there is no recoil that effects the pistol then you would still have the hammer fall to consider. The golf club analogy fails the perfectly rigid test but also amplifies how two parts of a mostly solid object can have two different absolute acceleration. One end of the club slows down as the other end speeds up as both ends go forward. I was just arguing the absolute acceleration part. I concede that it would work perfectly mounted to the barrel or the frame. Laughing Isn't that how our dots work?
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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by tceva on 8/29/2017, 4:50 am

From a Newb perspective the MantisX helps a lot with consistency.  Mine is mounted on a mag with a couple of wraps of tape to tighten the fit.  For Dry fire it seems to miss a lot of hammer falls. (usually my best ones).  In live fire, the data reflects my best shots, ie. 95%+ is usually in the black.  I switched it over to bullseye mode at the range last night and it looked like a sprirograph.
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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by MantisAustin on 8/29/2017, 8:54 am

My ears were burning! (Austin from Mantis here)

The core sensors measure acceleration and angular velocity (degrees per second).  For a non-flexible object, the magnitude of the acceleration will be the same, regardless of position, as will angular velocity.  If we were looking at pure velocity or displacement, those would be different, but in this case we all win. 

Mathematically it's pure, but, being skeptics, we make sure to verify.  We've tested to confirm the same.

Note:  there aren't any target sensors, so you won't get feedback on your sighting.  But you'll be able to more easily segregate and pinpoint the issues by comparing MantisX results and on-paper results.

Edit:  I meant to say "angular acceleration" will be the same.  Linear acceleration is different.


Last edited by MantisAustin on 8/30/2017, 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by zanemoseley on 8/29/2017, 10:51 am

What would be interesting is to us a mag mounted sensor in both my 22 conversion 1911 and my 1911/.45 and see how good my trigger pulls compare with the 2. Kind of to see how much worse my pull is when there is significant recoil versus no recoil.

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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by gregbenner on 8/29/2017, 11:21 am

Austin, on another thread you indicated several features/enhancements were in the works.  Could you comment on the status of those? I am copying your comment below.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the feedback!  We love it.  MantisX wasn't originally designed for bullseye shooters in mind, but we're happy to build out the features to accommodate.  A few notes on your comments:

1) Extended time tracking is coming.  Most shooters don't know how to make heads or tails of a longer trace, which is why we default to a shorter period.  But all the data is in the app - it's just a question of building out the right interface for it.

2) Multi-gun support is currently in the app.  If you're having any issues with setting that up, let me know.

3) Ability to delete a shot will be coming

4) The whole cloud component (porting data, multi-user support, etc.) is coming.  We have an internal version we're beta testing now.

5) You're right - we need to do a better job on the website of providing after-purchase support.  To answer the questions here:  battery takes about 2 hours to charge and lasts about 8 hours on a full charge.  There aren't firmware updates on this edition of the hardware, but lots of frequent software updates (all free, in-app).

Thank you for the detailed review, including the limitations of MantisX for certain purposes.  The last thing we want is for someone to buy it expecting something other than what it is!

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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by MantisAustin on 8/29/2017, 11:29 am

1) Done
2) Done
3) Done
4) Done (create an account in the app, then go to https://train.mantisx.com )
5) We'll never be done with this.  Always more to do!

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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by tceva on 8/30/2017, 4:59 am

Austin,
Is there a percentage of shots that are missed in dry fire that could be considered normal?  It amazes me that it picks up any from smaller caliber guns.  In live fire I don't think mine has ever missed a shot.  Can or have you ever recorded a 100% shot? Maybe out of a vice?
Thanks in advance.
Alex
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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by MantisAustin on 8/30/2017, 7:25 am

Alex,

It depends on the gun and whether or not it has been included in our algorithms.  For most guns, expect 95-100% shot detection with dry fire.  If you're missing a bunch of them, send us an email and we'll get some data for your specific firearm that will be rolled into the algorithms.

Our engineers are pretty geeked out about their algorithms!  I've seen a 100 two or three times, but, yes, it pretty much has to be in a vice for that to happen.

Best,
Austin

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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by Froneck on 8/30/2017, 9:21 am

Hmmm! got my interest! Can a site address be post for lazy guy like me so I don't have to search for it? Smile

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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

Post by Chris Miceli on 8/30/2017, 9:30 am

Froneck wrote:Hmmm! got my interest! Can a site address be post for lazy guy like me so I don't have to search for it? Smile

For my buddy Frank,.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=mantis+x
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Re: Mantisx or Targetize

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