Scoring Early Shot

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Scoring Early Shot

Post by estuck on Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:30 pm

At our state match today in the .45 Rapid fire portion a shot was fired early before the targets had turned. The final range command was given and the shot was fired about a second or two before the targets faced. There was just enough angle on the edged target that the shot actually "skidded" through the scoring rings. In scoring the shooter was not given the value of the obvious early shot. Shooter protested stating the wind oscillated the target and in his mind the target was turning. Jury concluded the value of the early shot would not be given. Shooter argued under section 14.5 and 14.6 that it should count. What do you all think. Thanks for any input.

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Re: Scoring Early Shot

Post by LenV on Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:13 pm

Since you ask what I think. I think it would not be counted and I think the shooter should have agreed. He might of had an argument for a range alibi but not to score an early shot. Just my .02

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Re: Scoring Early Shot

Post by Wile E Coyote on Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:19 pm

Jury is somewhat correct.

14.5 Early or Late Shots - When a shot is fired early or late,
that is, before or after the signal to commence or cease fire, when
the required number of hits are visible on the face of the target, the
value of the highest hit will be scored a miss. When fewer than the
required number of hits are visible on the target, the competitor
will be scored a miss for each shot not on the target, and those visible
on the target will be scored in the normal manner.

8.1 Computing Time - When rotating targets are used time is
taken for the period during which the target is fully exposed. Time
is not checked on each individual shot but is computed on the indicated
allowance for each fi ve-shot string depending on the type
of fire being conducted, except slow fire may be fired in 10-shot
strings. The signal to commence firing may be given orally, by
whistle or by having the targets turn. Shots fired when targets are
turning will be scored in accordance with Rule 14.3.

The signal to commence firing had not been given (the targets had not turned). Using rule 14.5; if the value of the "obvious" early shot had not been the highest score, the shooter should have lost the highest scoring shot, not the value of the early shot. Sounds like the jury may have been lenient.

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Re: Scoring Early Shot

Post by SachStormare on Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:08 am

Wile E Coyote wrote:Jury is somewhat correct.

14.5 Early or Late Shots - When a shot is fired early or late,
that is, before or after the signal to commence or cease fire, when
the required number of hits are visible on the face of the target, the
value of the highest hit will be scored a miss. When fewer than the
required number of hits are visible on the target, the competitor
will be scored a miss for each shot not on the target, and those visible
on the target will be scored in the normal manner.

8.1 Computing Time - When rotating targets are used time is
taken for the period during which the target is fully exposed. Time
is not checked on each individual shot but is computed on the indicated
allowance for each fi ve-shot string depending on the type
of fire being conducted, except slow fire may be fired in 10-shot
strings. The signal to commence firing may be given orally, by
whistle or by having the targets turn. Shots fired when targets are
turning will be scored in accordance with Rule 14.3.

The signal to commence firing had not been given (the targets had not turned). Using rule 14.5; if the value of the "obvious" early shot had not been the highest score, the shooter should have lost the highest scoring shot, not the value of the early shot. Sounds like the jury may have been lenient.

Rules are rules. I may have to take note of this for future reference.

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Re: Scoring Early Shot

Post by CR10X on Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:25 am

At our state match today in the .45 Rapid fire portion a shot was fired early before the targets had turned. The final range command was given and the shot was fired about a second or two before the targets faced. There was just enough angle on the edged target that the shot actually "skidded" through the scoring rings. In scoring the shooter was not given the value of the obvious early shot. Shooter protested stating the wind oscillated the target and in his mind the target was turning. Jury concluded the value of the early shot would not be given. Shooter argued under section 14.5 and 14.6 that it should count. What do you all think. Thanks for any input.

Per my reading of the rules, the shooter is correct, that shot should count, unless it was the highest scoring shot. On the other hand, the shooter should have lost the value of the highest scoring shot.  In my opinion, the jury did not make the correct decision if all the shots were on the target face and the early shot was not the highest scoring shot. 

Reading the rules, if there were 10 hits for scoring on the target (including the "skidder") then the all the shots should have been scored and the value of the highest scoring hit would be scored a "miss".  

By not scoring the the early shot, unless it was the highest scoring shot, my opinion is that they did not follow the rule.

An important point is the part that says, "the required number of hits on the face of the target". If the early was not on the face of the target, that shot would be a miss, and the other shots scored for their value.  If that was the case for this shot, then the jury would have been correct. 

An interesting situation would have been that there was a shot not on the face of the target, but on the backer and skidding into the target face.  In that case if there were 10 shots visible, including that shot that did not start on the face of the target, but ending up there.  It would be scored as a miss even if it touched the 5 ring, AND the highest scoring shot would also be scored as a miss according to 14.5.  

Again, this is my reading of the rules as presented.  I would be interested if anyone has a different interpretation or reading of this rule.

Let the discussion continue if needed.


Last edited by CR10X on Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Scoring Early Shot

Post by joy2shoot on Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:49 am

I assume when using turning targets, the 10 seconds allowed for Rapid Fire is the 10 seconds when the target is fully exposed.  In the original post, it stated the skidder shot was fired a second or two before the target was faced.  Let's say it was one second and let's say it takes one second for the target to turn and face.  Is the shooter who shot the skidder saying that all their shots should count for full face value even though that means they were given 12 seconds to shoot a RF string?  Or am I missing something here?

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Re: Scoring Early Shot

Post by Jack H on Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:24 pm

It matters not that the "early" shot was a skidder.  You lose the highest shot score. 
Then the skidder is scored as a skidder. 
example:
6(skid shot), 8,8,8,9,9,10,10,10,(10 not scored)
score    78

Consider the same early shot fired on a non-turn target. 
If the wind can move a target so much to confuse the shooter, the turn system is not suitable for competition.
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Re: Scoring Early Shot

Post by Skid on Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:39 pm

So that's what happened, I couldn't figure out why the "skidder" wasn't scored a 6 I didn't know it was an early shot but I could tell it was on the front of the target and that it diffidently didn't go from the back of the target to the front.
  This is a very interesting topic I'm going to have to study the on this one.

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Re: Scoring Early Shot

Post by pistol champ on Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:58 pm

I this was shot on an electronic scoring system how would the computer score this scenario?

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Re: Scoring Early Shot

Post by mark b on Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:59 pm



Obviously there are two skidders indicating both hits were made while the targets were turning. Do you think the score should be 80-3x or 100-5x ?

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Re: Scoring Early Shot

Post by cdrt on Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:31 pm

pistol champ wrote:I this was shot on an electronic scoring system how would the computer score this scenario?
On the electronic target system, it would be scored as a miss...at least that's my understanding of how it works.  The same with a late shot, when the light has turned red.
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Re: Scoring Early Shot

Post by BrianD on Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:28 am

Actually discussed this with a NRA referee at our state match a few weeks ago.  He had a target from the Canton regional this year that was shot during the team matches by one of the AMU teams.  You could see the skidder on the front, his determination was that it was a very early shot and therefore was scored a miss.  They went back and forth but as the rule book shows even if all hits are on the target if it is shot early or late (before or after the timing begins or ends) it is a miss.  That was how it was ruled there this year.

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Re: Scoring Early Shot

Post by John Dervis on Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:05 am

pistol champ wrote:I this was shot on an electronic scoring system how would the computer score this scenario?

I'm pretty sure the electronic targets would know if the shot came early or late and it would not count at all.

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Re: Scoring Early Shot

Post by cdrt on Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:09 am

BrianD wrote:Actually discussed this with a NRA referee at our state match a few weeks ago.  He had a target from the Canton regional this year that was shot during the team matches by one of the AMU teams.  You could see the skidder on the front, his determination was that it was a very early shot and therefore was scored a miss.  They went back and forth but as the rule book shows even if all hits are on the target if it is shot early or late (before or after the timing begins or ends) it is a miss.  That was how it was ruled there this year.
That is incorrect, according to the rule book, unless it was the high shot.  It should have been scored and the high shot would be the miss.
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