Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

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Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by KB2MBC on 9/11/2017, 6:50 am

Looking for some opinions here...
Yesterday I shot a state 2700 match, after the match came the .45 EIC (They shoot the .22 EIC immediately after the .22 900, but that's another story).
There were fewer shooters, so I was asked to move my equipment to another position in order to group the shooters closer together.
I did not comply, I told the range officer that if I have to move I might as well move my stuff to the car and go home.
So, I wasn't asked to leave so I shot. Afterwards, the line officer that asked me to move told me others moved so that I didn't have to.
Looking down the line I saw two shooters that appeared to have kept their position leaving a 4 slot gap from the other shooters. Not wanting to be a total jerk I didn't say anything.
I feel if one shooter has to move then make everyone move, it's a PITA. Is it a big deal to have gaps between shooters? Especially for a 30 round course of fire?

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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by Chris Miceli on 9/11/2017, 7:25 am

Hospital targets, also if you were on the far end someone has to walk farther to score you. I'd say you were being a jerk and should of moved without any grief
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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by jglenn21 on 9/11/2017, 7:43 am

It's not uncommon to be asked to move to tighten up the firing line. Hospital targets are one issue as is range safety. Makes it much easier for the range officer to see the entire line.  No big deal
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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by zanemoseley on 9/11/2017, 7:53 am

Sounds like you were being a baby about it. The range officer's word goes if its a reasonable request. Not to mention if you're really a marksman you really not in a position to be bowing up.

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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by weber1b on 9/11/2017, 8:02 am

At the Wisconsin State match each year, shooters for the "extra" matches are grouped together in the center. They take pains to group folks who are shooting three matches in the middle, two matches to one side and one match to the other. This way the line is reset once and the shooting remains grouped throughout. It is a small inconvenience but it works well. No one objects and it is all done rather quickly and we get on with shooting. I have shot other matches where this is not done and frankly, I think the folks running the Wisconsin match do it right and do it well.

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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by CR10X on 9/11/2017, 8:31 am

I try to keep the shooters grouped together as well.  It's more of a safety issue for me as it is easier to tell if everyone is on the line or if they have issues.  Additionally, having spaces in between shooters generally makes the range guys have to move more targets since all the intervening spaces should have targets installed in order not to have targets that are spaced separately (creating an advantage for that shooter, especially for an EIC match).  (Everyone should get an equal chance to crossfire.)  On the other hand all targets should be numbered and be alternating in color, etc. equally. 

Additionally: 18.1 Discipline - It is the duty of each competitor to sincerely cooperate with tournament officials in the effort to conduct a safe, efficient tournament. Competitors are expected to promptly call the attention of proper officials to any infraction of rules of safety or good sportsmanship. Failure of a competitor to cooperate in any case arising out of infractions of these rules may result in the said competitor being considered as an accessory to the offense. (See Rule 9.30).

And: 9.28 Refusal to Obey - No person will refuse to obey instructions of the Match Director, Official Referee, Jury, Supervisor, Range Officers or any other officer of the tournament, if instructions are given in the proper conduct of the office.

And: 18.15 Responsibility (f) To insure that the target is not altered intentionally or with special marks which will be beneficial in any way. Shots fired on such targets will not be scored.

Again, I do my best to try and keep it equal.  I would expect the competitors to do likewise if asked. 

CR


Last edited by CR10X on 9/12/2017, 5:55 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by BE Mike on 9/11/2017, 8:44 am

KB2MBC wrote:Looking for some opinions here...
Yesterday I shot a state 2700 match, after the match came the .45 EIC (They shoot the .22 EIC immediately after the .22 900, but that's another story).
There were fewer shooters, so I was asked to move my equipment to another position in order to group the shooters closer together.
I did not comply, I told the range officer that if I have to move I might as well move my stuff to the car and go home.
So, I wasn't asked to leave so I shot. Afterwards, the line officer that asked me to move told me others moved so that I didn't have to.
Looking down the line I saw two shooters that appeared to have kept their position leaving a 4 slot gap from the other shooters. Not wanting to be a total jerk I didn't say anything.
I feel if one shooter has to move then make everyone move, it's a PITA. Is it a big deal to have gaps between shooters? Especially for a 30 round course of fire?
I'm in agreement with the others. Other people are doing the dirty work so you can shoot. Another point is that it is not a good idea to get upset before or during a match.
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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by john bickar on 9/11/2017, 8:45 am

Yes.
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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by dronning on 9/11/2017, 9:24 am

Yes it is a big deal to have gaps as pointed out in previous posts, you should move when asked by an official, it's not a big deal to move (only in your head if you let it be).  

If the official wanted to press it failure to comply could have resulted in disqualification.

So you were kind of right, either move or pack up and go home, I feel the official let you getaway with one.
- Dave
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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by willnewton on 9/11/2017, 9:40 am

You have been chided enough already, so I will take the opposite side of trying to understand where you were coming from.

Perhaps you were tired, tense, and out of sorts after shooting the 2700, so you took offense without thinking through WHY they might be asking you to move.  The ROs were probably just as tired and busy, so may not have had the time to give you the extended explanation that may have helped you understand the bigger picture.

Next time it happens, you should have a better understanding of the situation.  The fact that you weren't sure and asked here shows that when your mind is thinking with better clarity you question the decision you made at the time.  I think this is a good sign and that you can chalk this up as a learning experience.

When in doubt, just try being nice, that is rarely against the rules.


Last edited by willnewton on 9/11/2017, 9:49 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : clarity)
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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by Aprilian on 9/11/2017, 9:42 am

KB2MBC wrote:Is it a big deal to have gaps between shooters? 
Was it really a big deal to move?

Others have made the important good points, but missed one.  Do you want to become "that guy" who is avoided because they don't play nicely with others?  Me, I'd apologize; see quote below.

Bruce Barton wrote:Sometimes when I consider what tremendous consequences come from little things... I am tempted to think that there are no little things.
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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by gregbenner on 9/11/2017, 10:26 am

Chris Miceli wrote:Hospital targets, also if you were on the far end someone has to walk farther to score you. I'd say you were being a jerk and should of moved without any grief

What are "Hospital targets"?

Based on what our range officer/match coordinator is paid, I would have moved as well.  Without Mark, we wouldn't have our monthly matches.

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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by Aprilian on 9/11/2017, 10:34 am

Hospital targets are an extra target at each end of the line.   Idea is that everyone has opportunity to line up on the wrong target when they get tired/stressed.  I always laugh because our match director puts a big blue H on the hospitals, which seems to defeat the opportunity to mistake it for your target.
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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by ChipEck on 9/11/2017, 8:22 pm

+1
weber1b wrote:At the Wisconsin State match each year, shooters for the "extra" matches are grouped together in the center. They take pains to group folks who are shooting three matches in the middle, two matches to one side and one match to the other. This way the line is reset once and the shooting remains grouped throughout. It is a small inconvenience but it works well. No one objects and it is all done rather quickly and we get on with shooting. I have shot other matches where this is not done and frankly, I think the folks running the Wisconsin match do it right and do it well.
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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by Multiracer on 9/11/2017, 8:39 pm

john bickar wrote:Yes.
Man of few words....got right to the point !

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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by jmdavis on 9/12/2017, 12:23 pm

Depending on how many people were working the line, it could have been a big deal. I often run matches with one, two, or no volunteers. When you are asked to do something to help make a match run smoother, try to think about the people running the match and the other shooters. 

Someone is sacrificing his or her own shooting to run that match and they are doing it for free.
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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by scrum derringer on 9/12/2017, 6:22 pm

KB2MBC wrote:
I did not comply, I told the range officer that if I have to move I might as well move my stuff to the car and go home.
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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by Ghillieman on 9/13/2017, 9:23 am

Yes, boxing up all your stuff to move down a few spots is a PITA, and we would all rather it be real simple. However, as this was a State Championship and a NRA Registered match where hospital targets are used, you really should have just complied and moved your stuff down to fill in the gaps. What you created was the possibility of someone else filing a complaint that you had your own target all by yourself without other targets for a chance to crossfire on. That's the reason for the hospital targets on the extreme left and extreme right, so everyone has the equal opportunity to screw up and crossfire.

What the match director should have done is made the line safe and have competitors remove their equipment from the line. Then at the start of the new match have competitors bring their equipment to the line and take their 50 yard targets down range, that would have solved his problem.

One thing that competitors forget is that without match directors, where would we shoot? Who would run these matches? Match directors don't get paid for their efforts and do what they do because they love the sport, don't make it a PITA for them.
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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by Multiracer on 9/13/2017, 11:56 am

"What the match director should have done is made the line safe and have competitors remove their equipment from the line. Then at the start of the new match have competitors bring their equipment to the line and take their 50 yard targets down range, that would have solved his problem."


BINGO

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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by orpheoet on 9/14/2017, 8:02 pm

Unfortunately that's part of the sport. As others have said the people running the match are donating their time for others to participate.
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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by john bickar on 9/14/2017, 9:34 pm

Multiracer wrote:"What the match director should have done is made the line safe and have competitors remove their equipment from the line. Then at the start of the new match have competitors bring their equipment to the line and take their 50 yard targets down range, that would have solved his problem."


BINGO

Sure, bingo for you, but then people bitch that the match takes too long and they can't get home to their wife and kids, or their Xbox, or whatever.

Match Directors simply cannot win. Someone will always bitch.

I try to get the fewest complaints and the most repeat customers. It's a tightrope to achieve that.
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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by joy2shoot on 9/14/2017, 9:52 pm

john bickar wrote:
Match Directors simply cannot win. Someone will always bitch.

I was at a match this year where the Match Director wore a T-shirt that said 'I am a @$$hole'.  Not much complaining that day....

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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by Blsi2600 on 9/14/2017, 10:43 pm

Simple explanation.  Limit the vast quantity of stuff you put on the bench.

Resetting the line for the next event is the correct way for the match director to do it.  
There should be no gaps between shooters.  There should be hospital targets on both ends.

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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by CR10X on 9/15/2017, 6:29 am

Actually the T-Shirt says:

"I'm an @$$hole. So if you don't want your feelings hurt, walk away"

(Sometimes the new people I meet need a warning.)

CR

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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

Post by Blsi2600 on 9/15/2017, 9:55 am

Registered matches are usually conducted in a more by the book manor.  Small local matches are more relaxed.  

Some competitors coming into the more formal procedures are surprised by the actions required by more experienced match directors.

Comply and learn.

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Re: Having to move down the line - am I being unreasonable?

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