Skid shot question

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Skid shot question

Post by Jack H on 9/11/2017, 11:17 am

I got to thinking on the "early skid shot". 
What happens when a skidder destroys enough paper to make other shots impossible to score?  Or if the skid mark obliterates another shot hole?
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by cdrt on 9/11/2017, 2:39 pm

See 14.9, Visible hits and close groups
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by Jack H on 9/11/2017, 3:48 pm

Understood about three shot groupings.  But what if the skidder wiped out just one shot hole, and there are no evident 3 shot groupings?  This is sort of like the impossible double.
My guess is if it not visible, you don't get it even if you know you fired it, maybe even scoped it between strings.
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by cdrt on 9/11/2017, 4:44 pm

Jack H wrote:Understood about three shot groupings.  But what if the skidder wiped out just one shot hole, and there are no evident 3 shot groupings?  This is sort of like the impossible double.
My guess is if it not visible, you don't get it even if you know you fired it, maybe even scoped it between strings.
Correct.  If you can't see it, it can't be scored.  Now, the chances of a skidder doing that are pretty remote, but possible with the .45, not so much with a .22.
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by kjanracing on 9/11/2017, 7:55 pm

We had a slider in RF that went 8 ring to 8 ring. We decided to just score all the rings. He got a really good ag that night!
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by 243winxb on 9/11/2017, 9:17 pm

Seen one cut the target in half, indoors 50 feet.
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by CR10X on 9/12/2017, 6:09 am

The scorer can only score what they see, applying 14.9 as needed.
The shooter can always challenge.
Sometimes you lose the perfect double anyway.  

However, in this situation, I would probably challenge using 9.12 Interruption of Fire, although the situation does not specifically address the conditions, ie., the shooter would have been able to see the target.   However, this rule does appear to give some leeway to applying it because condition (4) specifies "scoring". 

9.12 Interruption of Fire - (a) In timed or rapid fire when the firing of a string is interrupted by some occurrence which renders it impossible for one or more competitors to complete the string under the conditions of the match, the Chief Range Officer will proceed as follows. Without being permitted to examine their targets, competitors in the relay who have been so prevented from completing their strings will be asked if they wish to refire or to accept their score as fired. Targets will then be scored in the usual manner for all competitors except those who have elected to refire. Without being scored, the targets of such competitors who have elected to refire will be pasted or new targets substituted and a complete string will be fired and scored. Reasons authorizing this procedure are: 
(1) Failure to allow full time. 
(2) Failure of targets to operate properly or uniformly. 
(3) Failure of target to remain in position on frame or carrier. 
(4) Damage to target rendering impossible proper aiming or scoring impossible. 
(5) The appearance of some object in line of fire constituting a hazard......

As always, comments and opinions are welcome.

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Re: Skid shot question

Post by orpheoet on 9/14/2017, 8:07 pm

243winxb wrote:Seen one cut the target in half, indoors 50 feet.
I did that once indoors at Canton. I forget exactly how the target was scored but it wasn't beneficial.... I was actually pretty pleased with the feat even if I only scored 40 something:)
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by Jack H on 9/21/2017, 10:18 am

10? OR 9?
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by Chris Miceli on 9/21/2017, 10:19 am

Jack H wrote:10? OR 9?
0


Last edited by Chris Miceli on 9/21/2017, 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by Jack H on 9/21/2017, 10:25 am

It entered the X
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by Chris Miceli on 9/21/2017, 10:27 am

Jack H wrote:It entered the X
then X the shooter gets.
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by Tim:H11 on 9/21/2017, 11:40 am

That's a messy one! Neat looking.
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by Jack H on 9/21/2017, 12:03 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
Jack H wrote:10? OR 9?
5
If entered right edge, score = 0
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by LenV on 9/21/2017, 8:19 pm

Even if it entered the right edge? Weird way to turn. Then the score would be a 5. One scoring ring up from the miss is a 5 and you go up a max of one scoring ring.
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by Ed Hall on 9/21/2017, 9:04 pm

There should be a requirement for those posting in rules threads, to provide the rule that covers their subject.  That would include the OP as well as any responders.  The books are on line.  Cuts and Pastes are our friends.  I'm not really trying to be a smart ass, but memories, rules and previous experiences are often different from when we visit them today.

Rule 14.3(b):

"In case of skid shots, the higher value is awarded if the leaded edge of the bullet hole touches the scoring ring of higher value, except the value of a skid shot may not be more than one ring higher than the original point of bullet contact with the target. The target shall be defined as the entire card or paper on which the scoring rings are printed but shall not include the backing. When the original point of bullet contact is on the target card, but outside the scoring rings, and the leaded edge of the bullet touches a scoring ring, it will be given the value of the lowest scoring ring."

If the bullet touches the backer prior to the target, whether from the back (rule 14.3(c)) or the front, it is a "(M)iss."

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Re: Skid shot question

Post by sharkdoctor on 9/21/2017, 9:35 pm

Ed H makes some good points in his post, and I would add that, as competitors we should:

1) Know the rules

2) Have a rule book handy

3) (see #1)

#2 was emphasized to me by by a highly experienced shooter when I was a novice.  I lost a lot of points by not doing so, and gained points when I was later better prepared and more assertive.  Even NRA referees can have a memory lapse.  At most matches scores and issues are resolved quickly. If you can't immediately and effectively make your case, by producing the rule, it will cost you. And for those starting out, it will make matches less stressful, and scoring go more quickly.

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Re: Skid shot question

Post by CR10X on 9/22/2017, 6:11 am

Chris is correct if the shot started in or on the X ring.

Jack H is correct if the shot started off the target card.

That's why its important to know which way the targets turn and to inspect the target carefully to determine the actual entry point and direction. 

Ed is correct, but cut and paste from the NRA Rules (in PDF format) creates some formatting challenges, at least for me.  I do try to take the time to clean up the formatting issues when posting. 

Sharkdoctor is correct and the best advise so far.  

If you go to coaching class, training class, or referee training (for practically any sport) the first rule is to not answer a rules question without reading the rule book, even if you "know" the answer.

CR


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Re: Skid shot question

Post by Guest on 9/22/2017, 8:35 am

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Re: Skid shot question

Post by Chris Miceli on 9/22/2017, 9:27 am

http://rulebooks.nra.org/


See if you can get a copy of the 2017 rule changes as well....those still haven't been put online
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by fc60 on 9/22/2017, 11:14 am

Hi ,
No, we do not sell the Rule Book anymore, we only have for PDF.
 
Thank You,
 
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General Operations/Competitive Shooting Division
T (703) 267-1459
E mkramer@nrahq.org
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by Guest on 9/22/2017, 12:33 pm

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Phone: +1.6162603627
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Re: Skid shot question

Post by james r chapman on 9/22/2017, 12:42 pm

I think a PDF on your phone is pretty useful.
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Re: Skid shot question

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