Rules question.

Go down

Rules question.

Post by Mike38 on 9/16/2017, 9:43 am

This happened to a timed fire target I was scoring at a match a in July. Been eating at me since. Walked up to score the target, and I counted 11 holes. I asked the shooter if he accidently loaded 6 rounds into one of his magazines. Didn't think so, but it could happen. Noticed that two of the shots touched, just outside of the repair center. He suggested that one of those two was from a previous string, and the current string blew off the paster. Sure enough, there was a paster laying on the ground about three feet behind the target. I gave him the benefit of the doubt. But after thinking it over, should I have counted the ten lowest holes, and thrown out the highest shot?
avatar
Mike38

Posts : 254
Join date : 2016-09-15
Location : Illinois

Back to top Go down

Re: Rules question.

Post by james r chapman on 9/16/2017, 9:51 am

I think score the 10 lowest. The shooters responsible for making sure all previous holes are covered.
Heartless, but, best solution IMHO
avatar
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 2828
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 69
Location : HELL, Michigan

Back to top Go down

Re: Rules question.

Post by arnold jim on 9/16/2017, 11:39 am

I would have given him the benefit. That's my opinion only.

arnold jim

Posts : 23
Join date : 2013-11-05
Location : arnold, md... surprise

Back to top Go down

Re: Rules question.

Post by Jon Eulette on 9/16/2017, 11:46 am

I'm not going to look up the rule # and post it, but if 11 hits you score the low 10. That's the rules. But by same token if you have been scoring the shooter you can probably tell if a paster fell off by looking at previous 10 shot score. Yeah I know scoring guys that use lots of pasters make it difficult.....I score a marksman at every match and understand thoroughly.
Jon
avatar
Jon Eulette

Posts : 2137
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia

Back to top Go down

Re: Rules question.

Post by CR10X on 9/16/2017, 1:55 pm

Its all in the rules.  You had enough information to determine that in your opinion the shot was fired on the previous string (although usually you can check the score card as well for some shots).  Therefore you appear to be within the rules.  See below.

14.10 Excessive Hits - If more than the required number of hits appear on the target, any shot which can be identified by the appearance of the bullet hole as having been fired by some competitor, other than the competitor assigned to that target, or as having been fired in a previous string, will be pasted and will not be scored. If more than the required numbers of hits then remain on the target a complete new score will be fired and the original score will be disregarded, except: 

(a) If all hits are of equal value, the score will be recorded as the required number of hits of that value. 

(b) The competitor shall be allowed to accept a score equal to the required number of hits of lowest value. 

(c) If a competitor fires fewer than the prescribed number of shots through the competitors own fault, and there should be more hits on the target than the shots fired, the competitor will be scored the number of shots of highest value equal to the number fired, and will be given a miss for each unfired cartridge. 

(d) If a competitor, by mistake, fires more than the required number of shots, the required number of hits of lowest value will be scored. This shall not be considered a refire as outlined in Rule 9.14. 

(e) If the competitor refires, the original target with excessive hits shall be retained by the designated range official and on refiring, the competitor may not receive a score higher than the required number of hits of highest value on the original target. If the score on the refi red target is higher than the required number of hits of highest value on the original target, then the original target shall be scored using the appropriate hits of highest value; but if the score on the refired target is not higher, then such refired score will be recorded.

CR10X

Posts : 785
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Rules question.

Post by Ghillieman on 9/16/2017, 8:18 pm

Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. You found possible evidence of a paster being shot off and you made the right call.
avatar
Ghillieman

Posts : 406
Join date : 2012-02-14
Location : TEXAS

Back to top Go down

Re: Rules question.

Post by CR10X on 9/17/2017, 6:16 am

I know that a lot of people try to use the "benefit of doubt" quote in different situations.  However, I can only find a single case in the rules where it is specifically used.  (If I missed anything, please let me know so I can get better at this.)  That does not mean that we cannot make reasonable decisions, but "doubt" does not seem to be used anywhere else. 

14.9 Visible Hits and Close Groups - As a general rule, only those hits which are visible will be scored. An exception will be made in the case where the grouping of 3 or more shots is so close that it is possible for a required shot or shots to have gone through the enlarged hole without leaving a mark and there has been no evidence that a shot or shots have gone elsewhere than through the assigned target. In such case, the shooters will be given the benefit of the doubt and scored hits for the non visible shots, on the assumption they passed through the enlarged hole. If such an assumption could place a non-visible hit in either of 2 scoring rings, it shall be scored in the higher-valued ring.

Again, if it is somewhere else in the rules, please let me know.   Thanks.

CR10X

Posts : 785
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Rules question.

Post by Ghillieman on 9/18/2017, 11:19 am

Cecil, so your telling me even though the guy tells you he only fired 10 shots and you see the paster on the ground for the 11th hole, you are not going to give him the benefit of the doubt? That you are going to score his target for excessive hits?
avatar
Ghillieman

Posts : 406
Join date : 2012-02-14
Location : TEXAS

Back to top Go down

Re: Rules question.

Post by Aprilian on 9/18/2017, 12:24 pm

As a Marksman, I prefer not being given the benefit of the doubt, for example only 9 holes on the target. In one case last year, the expert scoring me tried to make (what I thought) a single hole into a double.  The point that these well meaning friends missed is that as I got better and got all 10 on the target my scores didn't seem to improve. I do understand that I see progress in other ways than score, but it can be frustrating when you execute a good match and see no improvement in score.
avatar
Aprilian

Posts : 567
Join date : 2016-05-13
Location : Minnesota

Back to top Go down

Re: Rules question.

Post by CR10X on 9/18/2017, 1:56 pm

Ghillieman:

No, I'm going to use rule rule 14.10 as I previously stated, in the order that the rules provide (look at the underlined section of that reply) and based on the information available (as in the case provided) to determine if there were excessive hits (first), then how to score.  I would (and have) scored the target as the original poster did.  The paster itself, condition of the target, the previous scores that were recorded and the scorers knowledge would be used to make the determination.  However, "doubt" is not included in that rule.  

I have scored others as excessive hits, scoring lowest 10 (11 and even 12 on the target) even though the targets on both sides had 10 hits. As scoring progressed, it appeared that the extra shots came from even further over on the line.  Just because the targets on either side had 10 hits was not enough to make a determination that there was no crossfire.  You can only score what you see AND determine with the available information.   

My comment was for the response about using "benefit of doubt" in that original posters case.  As far as I can tell, "benefit of doubt" is only used in the rule 14.9.  There is no other information or evidence available to determine the other shots did not did not go through the enlarged hole. 

I can find no other place in the rules where "doubt" is used.  So, for all other rules, it would appear to me, that information and evidence is needed to make the appropriate determinations.  

And this can sometimes work against the shooter.  For example, if a skidder obliterates a shot hole by completely removing the target and backer so there is no indication of a shot, then there is no evidence to support there was ever a shot there.  Or, losing the "perfect" double.  There is no language for "benefit of doubt" in the other rules that I can find.  

CR

CR10X

Posts : 785
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Rules question.

Post by Ghillieman on 9/18/2017, 6:46 pm

CR10X wrote: I would (and have) scored the target as the original poster did.
My point exactly, thank you.
avatar
Ghillieman

Posts : 406
Join date : 2012-02-14
Location : TEXAS

Back to top Go down

Re: Rules question.

Post by CR10X on 9/19/2017, 5:19 am

And as stated in my first post, the OP was within the rules under 14.10.  No "benefit of doubt" is stated or therefore available under 14.10.  



CR

CR10X

Posts : 785
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Rules question.

Post by Rob Kovach on 9/20/2017, 11:21 am

Cecil wrote:14.10 Excessive Hits - If more than the required number of hits appear on the target, any shot which can be identified by the appearance of the bullet hole as having been fired by some competitor, other than the competitor assigned to that target, or as having been fired in a previous string, will be pasted and will not be scored.

Pretty clear.
avatar
Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2702
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 45
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: Rules question.

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum