Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

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Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by Oleg G on 9/16/2017, 6:54 pm

For the last few weeks I included lots of one-shot rapid-fire drills into my dry fire training routine and it helped me to significantly improve my groups in slow fire, as well as rapid fire.
I made a long (15 mins) recording consisting of a sting of partial range commands and one-shot drills for rapid fire.

Each sequence has:
- "Ready on the right"
- "Ready on the left"
- "Ready on the firing line"
- Horn sound to start
- 2 seconds
- Horn sound to stop

Training to this cadence for SF with dry fire really showed me when I need to abort my shots.
Today I used this recording as a cadence for my slow fire practice on the range. The results showed marked improvement over the previous practice sessions.

I am thinking of using this recorded cadence during SF strings in a match. I have the recording on my phone and can connect the phone to my electronic ear protection headphones, so only I can hear what is playing on the phone.
The question I have is - will I be breaking any rules by using this recorded cadence during a match as an aid?

Thanks for advice as always,
Oleg.
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by kjanracing on 9/16/2017, 7:15 pm

Wow, I've been doing that exact same thing the last few training sessions? I was going to ask that question too.  Following!
Kurt
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by james r chapman on 9/16/2017, 7:45 pm

3.22 Cell Phones and other shooting aids:



Shooters are responsible to ensure all devices in their possession forward of
the ready line are silenced and communication disabled (e.g.: mute
all sound producing devices and airplane mode for cell phones.
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by Oleg G on 9/16/2017, 7:53 pm

Jim, thanks for the explanation. However, the rule seems to be designed to prevent the sound from accidentally distracting other shooters. In my case, I deliberately connect the phone to my headphones with an audio cable to prevent any sound emanating from the speakers and distracting other shooters. Even if I put the phone into the airplane mode, I can still play the recorded cadence into my headphones.
Or am I missing something?

Regards,
Oleg.
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by Oleg G on 9/16/2017, 7:57 pm

Just re-read the rule-book section. It seems that the use of the sound-producing shooting aids (i.e. cell phones) is allowed, as long as they do not emit sound, which is audible to other shooters on the line and has no chance of distracting the line.
Or is it my wishful thinking?
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by Ghillieman on 9/16/2017, 8:11 pm

Great idea for practice, eventually you will get the cadence down and wont need it for a match.

Don't be the guy at Perry who has their phone accidentally go off on the line....
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by james r chapman on 9/16/2017, 8:17 pm

I think they allow muted, no sound, devices for use as stop watches.
I can't seem to agree that 'no sound' means only that sound you can hear.
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by Rotwang on 9/16/2017, 8:21 pm

Oleg G wrote:Just re-read the rule-book section. It seems that the use of the sound-producing shooting aids (i.e. cell phones) is allowed, as long as they do not emit sound, which is audible to other shooters on the line and has no chance of distracting the line.
Or is it my wishful thinking?


3.20 ...Only sound reducing devices may be worn. ... 

3.22 Cell Phones and other shooting aids: Shooters are responsible to ensure all devices in their possession forward of the ready line are silenced and communication disabled (e.g.: mute all sound producing devices and airplane mode for cell phones).

Mute would mean that the device doesn't emit any sound.  There was a rule before to prevent shooters from being able to hear the coach and then they started to crack down on beeping timers.  you had to keep them quite by cutting the wires if needed.

It may be illegal to wear a hearing aid or muffs that amplify sounds or play music.  I have some memory from shooting international where you weren't allowed to have a music player

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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by Oleg G on 9/16/2017, 8:23 pm

Yep, Murphy's Law will always prevail: "if something can go wrong, it WILL go wrong." So, as enticing as this idea is to me, I will not use the recording during the match.

Thanks for the enlightenment, gentlemen!
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by james r chapman on 9/16/2017, 8:27 pm

Not to mention while your device is telling you ready on the firing line, the line is being told to stand down and your the only guy standing there pointing his gun down range wondering why the targets haven't turned! lol
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by john bickar on 9/16/2017, 9:00 pm

I commend you for your efforts to have a predictable, repeatable, consistent set of commands to develop a predictable, repeatable, consistent shot plan. You're showing signs that you "get it".

What would happen if you internalized those commands, and stated them to yourself subconsciously before each slow fire shot?

(Oops, I may have just given away a High Master "secret"!)
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by LenV on 9/16/2017, 9:19 pm

I have to wear earmuffs that amplify the commands or I wouldn't hear anything. They mute the firing sounds automatically of course. My big question is how would you ever get them in sync with the range commands. I have had the three seconds between commands stretch to 5 seconds and also have seen commands as fast as speedy Gonzales. Did that age me? Seriously, you could find yourself shooting early or late and wondering what happened. The only consistent thing is the 10 or 20 seconds that targets face.

Len
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by kjanracing on 9/16/2017, 9:31 pm

He and I are only using it for slow fire cadence. I started using the Drill program in the bullseye commands app training to shoot the turn. I noticed my groups were not too bad. So ought I'd try shooting a slow fire string using the commands. I had good results, so I plan to use that drill often in training. TF and RF I'd listen and follow the real commands as usual.
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by CR10X on 9/17/2017, 6:25 am

3.22 Cell Phones and other shooting aids: Shooters are responsible to ensure all devices in their possession forward of the ready line are silenced and communication disabled (e.g.: mute all sound producing devices and airplane mode for cell phones).

Silenced and mute by definition means than no sound can be produced.  If only the shooter can hear it, it is not mute or silenced.

Just my interpretation.  However I can seen the reason, even in this case since the shooter must be able to hear the range commands, with no confusion, at ALL times.

Please continue the discussions and I would love to hear from a NRA ref on this.

Thanks.

CR

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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by Oleg G on 9/17/2017, 6:40 am

John Bickar,

Thanks for giving away "the secret"! Smile
My goal for using this recording is indeed to achieve predictable, repeatable and consistent shot execution (execution of the shot process) in slow fire. Thinking about it, I see that relying on a "techno-crutch" may not be best in the long run. So, I will follow your advice and figure out the way to follow my cadence without the help of the recording.
The easiest way I see to accomplish this is to come up with a "code-phrase" or even a simple count, which will follow the timing of the cadence. And then, endless repetition of the correct sequence...

Regards,
Oleg.
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by Oleg G on 9/17/2017, 6:49 am

Cecil and Jim,

From the perspective of interpreting the rules, I think that the best approach is to understand the intent behind the rule. In this case, has the rule been created to:
1. Eliminate distractions to all competitors, which can be introduced by sound-producing devices, or
2. Remove any unfair advantage that a competitor may gain from a form of coaching provided by the sound-producing device

If the intent behind the rule is my second point, than your reading is 100% correct and no such device can be used on the firing line for any reason whatsoever.
If the intent behind the rule is my first point, one may argue that sound, which is inaudible to other competitors, is not breaking the rule.

As I said in my earlier post, I will not use my recording in a match but other opinions on the rule will be very interesting.

Best Regards,
Oleg.
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by james r chapman on 9/17/2017, 7:00 am

Oleg,
Or,
3) for safety. To make sure all competitors can hear the range commands, (cease fire! Boat in the impact area!), Without distraction from audio devices.

Only the voices in your head allowed.
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by Oleg G on 9/17/2017, 7:03 am

Jim

A fantastic point, agreed wholeheartedly! But now, that you bring up the voices in my head... Smile Smile

Regards,
Oleg.
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by CR10X on 9/17/2017, 7:54 am

Having been part of the discussion on this rule for the last revision, do not underestimate the simplicity of the words. Aside from safety, no confusion of range commands, interference with other competitors; coaching was also discussed. Coaching from an external source is not allowed in individual matches. The RO can't tell if a shooter is listening to music, gun porn, coaching or the news if the shooter is jacked into a device that produces sound.

Listen to John and the voices inside. As the saying goes, if a crutch is needed, one is probably not going to win the race. I think this is probably a great training aid if it works for you. But training is training and matches are for competing.

Good shooting.

CR

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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by Wobbley on 9/17/2017, 10:58 am

Even during training, running the full command set for each shot may be counter productive.  Time your self for getting on the target from the rest position then program a timer to give a ding or tone to start and then at your time to settle plus two or three seconds.  But that's only for practice.
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by Jack H on 9/17/2017, 11:16 am

Personal audio during a match?  Simple answer....No.
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by jmdavis on 9/17/2017, 11:21 am

U
For slowfire.

Is the line ready? 
3...2...1..
The line is Ready
3...2...1..
Ready on the Right? 
3...2...1..
Ready on the left? 
3...2...1..
Ready on the firing line.
3...2...1..
Commence. 

Just run what you need in your head. The side effect is that you occupy your matches mind. By the way, the above is the script that many match directors and the matches at Perry use.im not sure that it's a good idea to train tomshoot to command for slowfire. I will let others comment on that.
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by Blackbird on 9/17/2017, 7:26 pm

Beginning pop/rock musicians will use a metronome to develop and sharpen their sense of timing, but they learn to wean themselves off of it and use the drummer/bass guitarist as a timing reference.

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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by DR1826 on 11/12/2017, 4:57 pm

The old rule used to be - no sound emitting devices forward of the ready line.  This was to keep one person's device from distracting another person.

Now with multi-function personal devices that so happen to have a phone as part of this functions, the intent of the rule and its evolution would make for an answer of NO to having something playing in your ear only.

Training is one thing, matches another.  I used to shoot offhand indoor practice with a boombox at my feet blaring metal rock at me.  It altered my sense of time and forced a higher degree of concentration, plus distracted me between shots.  The more distracted away time and more intense concentration while in the shot process I found to be very beneficial.

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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

Post by Jack H on 11/12/2017, 6:18 pm

3.20 Ear Protection - All competitors and other personnel in
the immediate vicinity of the range complex are urged to wear
hearing protection devices. Only sound reducing devices may be
worn.
Match sponsors (and or ranges) may require ear protection.
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Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?

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