What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by mikemyers on 9/25/2017, 2:06 pm

First topic message reminder :

I think it would be helpful if some of the more experienced shooters here were to write up a list of suggestions for someone who wants to buy a 1911 gun for Bullseye Shooting.  This could describe the most important features, and maybe include examples of suitable guns (assuming there still are guns like this being made for sale in 2017).   It might also include recommendations of which guns might be better, if they needed to be sent off to a gunsmith for more work.
avatar
mikemyers

Posts : 402
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 73
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down


Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by Rob Kovach on 9/27/2017, 10:13 am

Wisconsinites pride themselves on being thrifty.

We have several shooters who have nothing more than a bone-stock Springfield RO or Loaded Target and the guns are suitable.

My Springfield Loaded Target with stock barrel and bushing shot an EASY 96 on the long line--that includes an 8 that I shot directly where I was aiming it in the 8 ring and the 2 nines were my fault also. If a stock Springfield can clean the long line, it's "Suitable"

I've shot a good number of clean sustained fire targets with that gun. All it has that isn't stock is a Cylinder and Slide trigger kit.

We have done machine rest testing on many of the Range Officers that have been bought by shooters in my area and they are all about 3" guns. Some a little better.

I'm sure with some ammo development to match each gun, those groups could be even better.
avatar
Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2681
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 44
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by mikemyers on 9/27/2017, 10:33 am

CR10X wrote:......In general, one should first decide if it is the sport for the person that they are, not the person they think they are.....
Cecil, while I know you're right, I don't agree with that one sentence.  Knowing I'm already probably too old, especially my eyes, while I accept that I'm never going to be as capable as others, I still find if very enjoyable to do something close to what you guys do.  The club where they have matches has one (small) group shooting one handed, and a much larger group shooting two handed, but doing mostly the same thing.

I think that in addition to "the person they are", and "the person they think they are", we need another category for "the person they think they can be".  As one of my advisors in a different forum put it, don't limit yourself by thinking you can't do something - with enough work and practice, you can!  

There may be hundreds of people who read this, and probably the majority just want to shoot better at their local range.  If they enjoy that, they will improve, and maybe some of them will want to get into Bullseye.  For those who are already getting serious about it, I think there's a lot of good information up above - especially including the idea of starting off with a decent 22.


(Personally, you guys have made a huge change in the way I thought about getting a 1911.  I'm going to search out those threads about the R.O.  Rob, when you say "three inch guns", at what distance?)
avatar
mikemyers

Posts : 402
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 73
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by Rob Kovach on 9/27/2017, 10:58 am

Rob, when you say "three inch guns", at what distance?

50 yards. A bullseye gun should be 3" or less at 50 yards in order to be "suitable".

Also, my toughest competitors in my region are older than you, Mike. Ed Masaki tells an interviewer on YouTube that Bullseye has no age limit--and he really is right. Practice, dryfiring, and matches will put you on a similar playing field to other shooters with a similar number of trigger pulls as you.
avatar
Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2681
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 44
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by Slartybartfast on 9/27/2017, 11:18 am

CR10X wrote:
they will hesitate at putting the capital up for a really good bullseye gun (1911 or otherwise).  They will get something almost as good, cheaper, what someone else said, marketing hype or flavor of the day.

You just said something that as a noob I didn't dare question. "Or otherwise"

As someone who's currently just into shooting .22 (and absolutely loving my recently acquired 22LR FAS SP607) I read these threads and wonder: If they need so much work and professional care to become great guns, why is the 1911 such a great choice?

Seeing as Bullseye isn't really a thing around here, and I don't have a large number of old timers to impress by getting the "correct" gun, my "if I win the lotto" gun is leaning towards a Sig X-Six. My "fine I really have a budget" gun is leaning towards a standard P220 model. But only the high end bullseye market 1911's seem to have any kind of ransom rest grouping at 50yd information.

So which guns qualify for a reasonable "or otherwise" classification as choice? And where do these "or otherwise" guns place in terms of reliability, accuracy, precision compare to out-of-the-box or high master gunsmith modified 1911s?

If I come across a 1911 that really speaks to me, guess I wouldn't mind picking one up. Shot pretty well with a range rental Kimber in 9mm for my first ever 1911 experience. Happy with the results, and feel that I could certainly improve with that "out-of-the-box" pistol. But it just didn't speak to me.
avatar
Slartybartfast

Posts : 139
Join date : 2016-11-11
Age : 46
Location : Montreal, Québec

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by dronning on 9/27/2017, 11:20 am

mikemyers wrote:I think it would be helpful if some of the more experienced shooters here were to write up a list of suggestions for someone who wants to buy a 1911 gun for Bullseye Shooting.  This could describe the most important features, and maybe include examples of suitable guns (assuming there still are guns like this being made for sale in 2017).   It might also include recommendations of which guns might be better, if they needed to be sent off to a gunsmith for more work.

The best advice is to find a mentor based on your interest, or read what is posted on this site and continue to ask questions. 

There isn't a "list" of options there are just too many variables, too many paths.  Current skills, desire/commitment, financial.  Almost any decent 22 will work but a 1911 needs a good trigger and as Rob said it must be able to shoot a 3" group.  Anything less and you will struggle.  If you can't call your shot because the gun is all over the place how can you improve.

Much of the info you seek has been covered in this thread or elsewhere on this site, there is also this:
The Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol   


ONE PATH
Here is the path one of my shooting buddies took - over a 2 year period.
Expressed interest, came to a match not expecting to shoot.  We loaned him a 22 & he shot the 22 portion of a 2700.
Next match he brought his 22 Ruger and shot the 2700 with his Ruger.  He did this for several matches.
Then he bought a used Gold Cup NM 45 and shot that and the Ruger for a while. <== He started reloading here too!
He bought a Nelson conversion which he would swap onto his Gold Cup lower with a 3.5lb trigger, then swap back for the CF & 45 matches.
Months later he found a good deal on another 1911 which he bought just so he could have a dedicated lower and 2lb trigger for the Nelson.
Some time went by and he snatched up a very good deal on a Les Baer WAD gun with a Matchdot II.
He then added a Matchdot II to his Nelson.
He is a Sharpshooter, just shy of Expert, today, not because of his equipment, but because he works on his fundamentals.

 -Dave
avatar
dronning

Posts : 1435
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 64
Location : Lakeville, MN

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by CR10X on 9/27/2017, 11:56 am

Mikemyers:

My post did not have any thing to do with ability, present or future.  If it did, I would have said so and make some comment about what you need to start, then get modified, then picking out a gunsmith, etc. etc.  

There are thousands of Marksmen, Sharpshooters, Experts, etc, competing every weekend with everything from WWII rattlers to +$5,000, 1.5 inch guns.  Because they found something in the sport of shooting with one hand, at 25 and 50 yards,  that appealed to them.  They probably did not have that commitment and love of the game when they first started, but it came and grew. 

It ain't all about the best gun or the smallest group, or what the last champion shot.   It's about what makes you happy.   Some people don't know that when they start.  But if they get a good .22, start shooting and find out they are the person that loves the sport (which they may not have thought they were in the beginning), then they won't need to ask what makes a 1911 suitable for bullseye shooting.  They will have decided that for themselves.  

So again, what makes a 1911 suitable for bullseye shooting?

The shooter (and I ain't talking about ability)! 

Cecil

PS:  Forgot to add.  We are never the person we think we are, from either an external or internal perspective.  The real person is not how others see us or how we see ourselves, it's somewhere in between and generally much more interesting.  Think of the "epiphany" we feel when we find something new that we enjoy very much, even though we were not interested or only mildly curious before the experience. That person was in there, we just didn't know it yet.


Last edited by CR10X on 9/27/2017, 4:21 pm; edited 3 times in total

CR10X

Posts : 578
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by mikemyers on 9/27/2017, 12:06 pm

Yep, I understand that - I was going to post an old Cunard saying from when I was growing up "Getting there is half the fun!".    Then I thought it was too "corny" to post, but for me, it works.  I enjoy shooting, and ditto for reloading.  If I could, I'd be at the range at least three days a week.   Laughing

I guess I should start looking for a good way to mount a Matchdot II.
avatar
mikemyers

Posts : 402
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 73
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by Magload on 9/27/2017, 12:08 pm

When starting BE I started with a used Gold Cup NM that I already had.  I shot good with it two handed indoors but when starting BE and taking it outdoors to the long line I looked like I was shooting a 12 Ga with 00 buck.  Next trip i took my RR and shot it at the LL.  8" groups.  I had wastes a lot of time trying to shoot a gun that shot as poor as I shoot.  I fitted a new NM bushing and brought the group size down to 3.5".  It is not a good BE gun but one could learn with it now.  Now I shoot a LB Wadgun and a Nelson on a R1 frame.  Both guns with a KC trigger.  I don't shoot those guns any better then the Gold Cup but I really like them.  The LB will shoot a 1.6" group with the RR and I have not tested the Nelson.  Great shooting guns that I struggle to even shoot a group with.  You can't buy your way to the top of this sport and least at the beginning.  Don
avatar
Magload

Posts : 1022
Join date : 2016-11-18
Age : 70
Location : NE Florida

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by chopper on 9/27/2017, 12:20 pm

Mike, I'm sure Rob is referring to 50yds. I joined our local gun club about 6 yrs ago after I retired. I had a HS Sharpshooter 22 and a S&W model 28, that I shot and reloaded 357 for. When I was shooting indoor targets at 50ft, I watched a guy shoot 1 handed which impressed me. Didn't think much about it, because I wanted to learn how to defend myself and family and bought a Glock and shot IDPA. Then one day I saw that guy shooting outside at 50yds one handed, "WE TALKED". I joined our 300 league that fall and shot both guns 2 handed, this guy asked me to shoot  NRA Bullseye Postal and I had to shoot 1 handed. I could only hit inside the rings maybe 4 out of 10 shots, but I practice alot of live  fire. The next year is when I joined in the fun and shot Postal Matches, I never shot 2 handed again, I was hooked. Shooting 1 handed is a challenge and probably a reason a lot of people won't shoot it is because we have to disapline ourselves to learn it. You are at the right place to get advice and help.
 I still shoot in our clubs 300 league, us Bullseye shooters shoot it 1 handed while others shoot 2. I can't win it yet, but someday I might just surprize the top 2 hander. It's also good practice before Postal starts.
 I since have gotten much help from top shooters. They encouraged me to shoot as many tournaments as I can, I have to drive 110 miles to the nearest NRA approved or sanctioned 2700's and most of them are pretty much on the eastern border of Iowa, I live on the western border.
  My first 1911 was an AMT Hardballer tuned by a retired gunsmith that happened to shoot some Bullseye in southern Cal. years ago. He let me have that gun for $600, I shot it worse than the Highway Patrolman. I improved since and bought a Springfield RO.and had trigger work, and the bushing tightened, also a frame mounted UD. I think it is an improvement over the AMT and I can show you a picture of what 50 shots looks like from the Master shooter who worked on this RO. As said to me by many HM,M,E,SS, and fellow MK we all started where you are now. Do what ever it takes to shoot 1 handed, you'll love it. 
 Stan

chopper

Posts : 57
Join date : 2013-10-29
Age : 65
Location : Western Iowa

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by mikemyers on 9/27/2017, 1:17 pm

'chopper', thanks for the post.  I guess the first step for me would be to start dry-firing one handed, until I get used to it.  Once I feel at least a little comfortable, no reason not to shoot both ways for a while.  I guess I really ought to start right handed with just the 22 though, although the 1911 is lighter.  Need to think about it.

Those targets - 50 yards?  Is that like a four inch group?  I have never witnessed anyone shoot that well, at all the ranges I've ever been to, even at 15 yards!  

When you say you got helped by others, was that "advice", or did you find someone who could coach you?

(P.S. - I still have a Model 28 Highway Patrolman, and I shoot that gun better than any other that I've used.  If one can fall in love with a gun, that's it for me!)
avatar
mikemyers

Posts : 402
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 73
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by Aprilian on 9/27/2017, 2:22 pm

Cecil again giving the most succinct advice.
avatar
Aprilian

Posts : 343
Join date : 2016-05-13
Location : Minnesota

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by Wobbley on 9/27/2017, 2:46 pm

"Or otherwise"

As someone who's currently just into shooting .22 (and absolutely loving my recently acquired 22LR FAS SP607) I read these threads and wonder: If they need so much work and professional care to become great guns, why is the 1911 such a great choice?

Seeing as Bullseye isn't really a thing around here, and I don't have a large number of old timers to impress by getting the "correct" gun, my "if I win the lotto" gun is leaning towards a Sig X-Six. 

So which guns qualify for a reasonable "or otherwise" classification as choice? But it just didn't speak to me.

Two things, since you live in Canada, pistol shooting up there tends to be biased towards the ISU disciplines and ISU Standard Pistol is limited to 9mm bore size.  So, your centerfire pistol might be best centered on that.  Not that you must buy a 9x19 Parabellum.  A 1911 38 Super all tricked out should also qualify under ISU.  The US Army AMU developed the 38 Model 52 to shoot the ISU games IIRC.  A SIG 210 target in 9mm would be a VERY good pistol to have.  Secondly, you stated at one point that you'd like to shoot in the USA sometime.  For that you'd need a 45 but that can be any platform.  A Pardini works here, but they are pricey.  I'd opt for a S&W or SIG 1911 as target models can be had for around 2000 CDN$.  Less if previously owned.  If you get a 1911 in 38 Super or 9mm and are handy with tools and learn the knack, you can add a 45 caliber conversion for those times you need a 45.

Wobbley

Posts : 1048
Join date : 2015-02-12

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by mikemyers on 9/27/2017, 4:43 pm

chopper wrote:......Then one day I saw that guy shooting outside at 50yds one handed........this guy asked me to shoot  NRA Bullseye Postal and I had to shoot 1 handed. I could only hit inside the rings maybe 4 out of 10 shots, but I practice alot of live  fire. The next year is when I joined in the fun and shot Postal Matches, I never shot 2 handed again, I was hooked. Shooting 1 handed is a challenge and probably a reason a lot of people won't shoot it is because we have to disapline ourselves to learn it. You are at the right place to get advice and help......
It's not what this thread was about, but reading what you wrote got me to thinking.  I have never fired a 1911 one handed.  I don't think I've ever shot any gun one handed!  After what you wrote, I got into my dry-fire session, but a few minutes after I started, I put my left hand in my pants pocket, and started dry firing one handed.  I was amazed that the sights actually stayed reasonably lined up.  

OK, you got me. If I get to the range tomorrow morning, I'll take bigger targets, and see what I can do with one hand.  I'll probably enter another thread in which to ask for help.  Thanks!!
avatar
mikemyers

Posts : 402
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 73
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by rich.tullo on 9/27/2017, 5:23 pm

What makes a 1911 suitable was the question. 

1) The 45acp is an exceptionally accurate round and can be used for 2/3 legs in a 2700. 
2) For many years 45acp meant either a S&W revolver or a M1911. 
3) Owing to the surplus market after WWII millions of 45acp 1911's could be bought cheaper than a revolver. So people accurized them. 
4) As people started to get great scores with 1911s in 38 Special and M52's they took what they learned and made 1911 45 acps even more accurate and then people shot them for SF and 45acp. 
5) Trigger although its not a Hammerli but the 1911 trigger is the best combat trigger with only the CZ75 coming close. 
6) R&D over 100 years of competition has evolved the 1911 into the most accurate platform today. If Sig 210's or CZ 75s have been tuned for 100 years then they could be good too. 
7) The 1911 points naturally
Cool Grip you do not need target grips for a 1911 the dimensions are so good.
9) Today you do need a 1911 to get started but unless you have a CZ87 with good sights, get a RO and shoot the hell out of it.
10) Cost a RO is cheap at 700, Ruger Target may be good too. I shot expert scores with a Citadel (with some work to it) so you really  don't need a lot of money to get started.
avatar
rich.tullo

Posts : 850
Join date : 2015-03-27

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by chopper on 9/27/2017, 5:34 pm

Mike that's what I would do too as I never heard of dry fire when I first started. That is probably the best way to start, building strength and getting your trigger and steadiness working. I'd use the .22 at first, building on the fundementals, especially during rapid fire, the less recoil should help.
  That target was shot by the gunsmith after he finished a 2700. He wanted to test it before he mailed it to me the next day. It's a 25yd timed-rapid target shot slow at 50yds, I'd say she's very capable of being a 3" or less gun, if shot off sand bags. Once you get to High Master or Master most shots are Xs and 10s with a 9 once in a while. He said he was pooped the next day, I'm drained after a 2700. I shot next to a High Master at a 2700 2 weeks ago and tried to follow his cadence on the rapid stage, it helped me out.
  I get some advice from these guys, but never can get an actual coach, I live too far away, I live in Sioux City, Iowa.
  I love my 6" 28 too, a bit heavy, but they are very smooth. I bought a used 4"686 and had that worked on by the retired gunsmith that I bought my AMT from earlier. I'm shooting it in "300 league" along with a 22. Shooting that revolver gave me fits for a while, now I'm getting onto it a little more. I'll have to get the RO out and start working with it for the indoor 1800 tournaments this coming winter. 
  Seek out someone that shares the same enthusiasm that you do and shoot together. I just found a guy and we shoot together on Thursday, I use a bullseye app on my phone and bluetooth the commands to a RadioShack speaker, It's a fun time, we both train on our own, but have fun together.  
 Good luck to you Mike and don't give up, we all have the potential to be Masters with good advice and lots of dedication. 
Stan

chopper

Posts : 57
Join date : 2013-10-29
Age : 65
Location : Western Iowa

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by Magload on 9/27/2017, 6:56 pm

I shot my stock RO today and really shot good with irons which I seldom use.  She was dirty and with the light BE loads didn't want to cycle.  I could tell she was to dirty as the slide was going ahead to slow and i was having to use my thumb to push the round into battery.  Shot her anyway and cleaned her up when I got home.  Runs smooth now.  Now i am debating on putting in a lighter recoil spring so I can shoot my BE loads and maybe a KC trigger and barrel bushing but then to I would kind of like to just leave her stock for two hand shooting.  I shoot 5 @5yds, 5 @ 7yds and 5 @10 at a 1" bull and she will keep them all in the bull.  That is the range most of the people at the indoor range shoot.  I am the only person that shoots the 20yard with a handgun.  The RO is a good gun and I would recommend it to new shooters.  Don
avatar
Magload

Posts : 1022
Join date : 2016-11-18
Age : 70
Location : NE Florida

Back to top Go down

Noob question.

Post by Guest on 9/27/2017, 7:09 pm

Wobbley wrote:In order of preference:
Used Bullseye 1911 in whatever flavor you want (wad or hardball) from a reputable Smith.  

New or lightly used 1911 Government made by SA or Colt so you can send it off to a reputable Smith for build.

SARO or other custom from either SA or RRA.

LB or Wilson

Stock Gold Cup
What are "wad" and "hardball"?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by zanemoseley on 9/27/2017, 7:20 pm

wesleytilson@gmail.com wrote:
Wobbley wrote:In order of preference:
Used Bullseye 1911 in whatever flavor you want (wad or hardball) from a reputable Smith.  

New or lightly used 1911 Government made by SA or Colt so you can send it off to a reputable Smith for build.

SARO or other custom from either SA or RRA.

LB or Wilson

Stock Gold Cup
What are "wad" and "hardball"?

Wad, wadcutter or wad gun refer to a pistol setup for lead target load semi-wadcutter bullets, usually around 700fps. Can be setup with target irons or a rib to install a red dot.

Hardball is a nickname for jacketed rounds, in old days it would refer to issued 230 grain service ammo. Typically used for service pistol competitions. Service pistol class has been relaxed to allow hand loads and reduced weight jacketed ammo, you now see a lot of 185 grain jacketed ammo, the AMU and All Guard team shoot Atlanta Arms Elite 185 grain jacketed ammo even in a full 2700 match due to slightly better accuracy over lead ammo.

zanemoseley

Posts : 365
Join date : 2015-07-11

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by mikemyers on 9/27/2017, 7:38 pm

I had some more free time this morning, and read everything I could find on the RO.  There is even one shop in Miami that has one (but it is sold).  They said I could come to check it out before the new owner comes to get it.

It's available in black or stainless - do people here have a preference for one over the other?

Also, the front sight is fiber optic.  How much of an annoyance is that for Bullseye shooting?  I think it's great for picking up a target quickly, but detracts from the ability to align the sights?

It's a very nice looking gun, and amazingly I haven't found anything negative written about it in all the internet discussion areas.  

avatar
mikemyers

Posts : 402
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 73
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by rich.tullo on 9/27/2017, 8:50 pm

Most smiths prefer Black versus Stainless. If you are shooting the gun as is for a while it makes little difference. In Florida there are a lot of gun stores so I bet someone has them in stock. In Delray there are a couple of stores that had them. 

Shoot it for a couple of hundred rounds to break in then get a trigger job. Brandon Bunker near Tampa does a good trigger job. And have him replace the bushing. Go to home depot and get some stair tread for the from strap and you are GTG. 

Since you are not worried about shooting out the barrel I would not rebarrel it but those barrels on the RO's like Nosler JHP or Zero JHP's. That bullet over 4.5 BE or VV310 will shoot clean on the long line. My guess is 4.2 BE is fine for the short line. The bullets are more expensive but a Barrel costs $200 plus Labor to get it fitted. I would not start with a red dot unless you have poor eyesight.
avatar
rich.tullo

Posts : 850
Join date : 2015-03-27

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by mikemyers on 9/27/2017, 10:45 pm

'rich.tullo', regarding a trigger job, I need to ask somewhere what a "rolling trigger" is, which is what I think people talked about earlier.  

I'm lost about that last paragraph - why would more expensive bullets have anything to do with the cost of a barrel?  

Regarding stainless vs black, is the preference because the machining, or is there some other reason?

(As for me, this sounds like an enjoyable project, and when I get back home from my upcoming trip, if I still feel then like I do now, I'll get one.  If so, I'll certainly use it as-is for a while, just to see what it's like.  If I did decide to get it modified, I would ask if Jon had time some time in the next decade to do it.)
avatar
mikemyers

Posts : 402
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 73
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by HogCommander on 9/28/2017, 12:07 am

Re-reading this thread, would offer the following:

1.  Most desirable features...close tolerances (+/- 0.0005" ideally) in the fit of barrel hood to slide, barrel lower lugs to slide stop pin, barrel upper lugs to slide, barrel to bushing, bushing to slide, and slide to frame.  Most of the mechanical accuracy comes from those tolerances and production guns don't come with guarantees down to the 0.001". 

That said, even if the gun will shoot laser-like groups from a mechanical rest, a good trigger job (sear nose geometry, hammer hooks, proper adjustment of sear spring, eliminating unnecessary friction, etc) is critical to realize the mechanical accuracy.  In other words, a gun/ammo combo that produces 1.5" groups but has an 8 lb creepy, gritty trigger will be hard to win matches with.  There's also ammo...a 1.5" gun with a great trigger that is fed with Wal-Mart ammo simply won't produce 1.5" groups.

2.  Which guns might be better...things like brand loyalty, urban legends, and shooter budgets muddy the waters on this.  I would say the "best" for Bullseye are the ones that have the best fit barrels/bushings, good quality steel that won't loosen up quickly (slide/frame fit), and adjustable sights within the budget of the shooter.  The Range Officer isn't "THE Best" for Bullseye in absolute terms but offers a great compromise between cost and performance IMHO.  There are arguments to be made on the merits of buying better accuracy at a higher initial price point vs buying lower and upgrading incrementally.

3.  What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye...100+ years-deep body of knowledge on how to optimize the performance/reliability of the platform, availability of high quality oversize parts that can be precisely fitted to accuracy-producing tight tolerances, and relatively low cost.  I mention cost because you can have a Beretta M9/92 accurized to hold the X ring at 50 yards but it will generally cost more because the demand for X ring Berettas is lower than the demand for X ring 1911s and there are are fewer smiths that offer the specialized services to modify the Beretta.  Additionally, you can shoot a .45 ACP 1911 for both Centerfire and .45 relays in a 2700 match but the same tricked-out Beretta can only be used for one of those two relays.  I know there are other options, this is just meant to point out the practical value of the .45 ACP 1911 for its suitability to Bullseye.

Hope this helps.  At the end of the day, agree 100% that the best way to shrink groups is to master the fundamentals with a .22

HogCommander

Posts : 17
Join date : 2016-06-08

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by Keyholed on 9/28/2017, 5:15 am

mikemyers wrote:'rich.tullo', regarding a trigger job, I need to ask somewhere what a "rolling trigger" is, which is what I think people talked about earlier.

https://kcskustomcreations.com/product/battle-axe/

The normal standard that everyone things about in a 1911 trigger is a clean break. As you apply pressure to the trigger, it is transmitted through the trigger bow, to the disconnector, to the sear. In this normal style, the ideal is for the sear not to move until the hammer is released. This is accomplished through the height of the hammer hooks (.018"-.020" is common), cut square, and the sear face having a particular angle cut in it. If the trigger moves before the hammer releases, we call it "creep" and piss and moan about the trigger.

A roll trigger is, in practice, more like pulling an exceptionally short, exceptionally light, and exceptionally smooth double-action trigger. As you apply pressure to the trigger, the sear moves--and thus, so does the disconnector, and trigger! As pressure builds, the trigger moves, and moves, and moves, until finally it releases the hammer and you get into overtravel. In other words, it has all the same parts as your normal 1911 trigger--it just has a lot of exceptionally smooth, consistent creep. This is because the hammer hooks are cut long and with a precise geometry to help achieve this.

I would suggest that a roll trigger allows you to "feel" how you're building pressure better than a crisp break, but it can be a little demanding to shoot.

I got excellent results--with a lot of prep--from a KC Roll Trigger kit. The hammer/sear/disco themselves were trouble-free--I would expect them to be drop-in on any modern, decent frame. But I spent a lot of time polishing and smoothing my frame, dressing my sear spring, etc. Without adjusting the sear spring legs at all, I got a 2-pound, 10-ounce pull, with very little variation.

Is it worth it? I dunno. I really think you'd be well-served by getting an RO, shooting it a lot, and maybe taking the time to "dress" the sear spring a bit--that's taking the sear spring out, and just very lightly using some sandpaper to smooth the edges of the sear spring, as well as the "face" of the legs where they contact the trigger bow and disconnector, then cleaning it off with some solvent to remove the sanding dust. It's a little job, maybe 15-20 minutes depending on how good you are getting the gun back together. It's a good way to get started monkeying with 1911 parts, since even if you get into adjusting the sear spring and ruin it, you can get an excellent replacement for $8-$9.

Keyholed

Posts : 69
Join date : 2015-08-05

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by Guest on 9/28/2017, 6:12 am

I found a nugget of wisdom about the 1911's suitability for Bullseye shooting in this old book. It still rings true today.
AUTOMATIC
PISTOL SHOOTING

TOGETHER WITH INFORMATION ON
HANDLING THE DUELLING PISTOL
AND REVOLVER
Copyright, 1915
BY
WALTER WINANS

[url= https://bookspublicdomain.com/Shooting/Automatic-Pistol-Shooting-by-Walter-Winans.html#Page_1]https://bookspublicdomain.com/Shooting/Automatic-Pistol-Shooting-by-Walter-Winans.html#Page_1[/url]

"There are two makes which, from personal experience, I can recommend; one is the Colt .45 which has been adopted by the United States Government for army and navy purposes. This has a grip at the proper angle for shooting. Hardly any other automatic pistol is properly designed in this respect, their grips being too much at a right angle so that the barrel tends to point too high, thus creating a strain on the wrist, since the wrist must be held in an unnatural position."

"The Colt automatic of the U. S. Army pattern has a stock as pleasant to aim with as a dueling pistol."

"Next, it has a hammer which can be put to full and half cock, just like that of an ordinary pistol or revolver."
[Pg 3]
"It has, besides, two safety appliances; one a slide which can be moved with the thumb just before firing, like the safety bolt of a shotgun, the other a safety bolt which is pressed by the palm of the hand in the act of squeezing the trigger, like that of the Smith & Wesson safety revolver, later described."

"The pistol is, therefore, as fool-proof as it seems possible to make it, but yet there is the danger of a cartridge being left in the chamber when the magazine is taken out. I again warn all shooters of automatic pistols to bear this fact constantly in mind whenever handling an automatic."


"See that the trigger-pull is sweet, and has no drag. Also, have your trigger-pull as light as can safely be used. The pull is often left by makers very heavy, so as to be alterable to suit customers, and the shopman may forget to have this altered. If you are not hampered by rules, about three or three and a half pounds is the best trigger-pull for general purposes."

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by Froneck on 9/28/2017, 10:16 am

I disagree with starting with Iron sights. It was old school to be able to become proficient with Iron before moving on to optics. New shooters with the AMU were started with iron and issued Red Dots after a level of shooting score was reached (forgot what that was) But now they are issued Red Dot sights at the get go.
 The one thing that Red Dots provide is an instant indication of what is happening. It's much easier to call your shot with a RD sight. When proficiency is attained with RD sights is much easier to pick-up using Iron. In another Post I explained how Adam learned to shoot using the RD sight. Later when shooting matches that require Iron he shot near the top at the beginning and soon excelled with Iron. I just found and sent him the letter and the Tab he won in Presidents 100 back in 1997 at the age of 16. He has won the National Match twice, a number of action matches (Bianchi Cup style) in Production and Metallic class and set a record in Metallic class at this years Bianchi Cup. He has moved up to Open class and won the Steam Boat Challenge in Wyoming, but that allows the use of RD sights but in the last 2 matches he shot he won both Open and Metallic class.(Metallic means Iron sights must be used, Production too because it's the sight the gun came with in the box) Adam being the Coach of the AMU recommends starting with RD sights.
 You might want to try an older style 1" tube they are not as expensive as the 30mm. I would stay away from the micros, I'm hearing that they have some issues plus the better brands are pricey. I do not like the UltraDot Micro! Most will have the Weaver type rings available so if at some future time 1" can easily be replaced by 30mm without having to change the base.
 As to Stainless Steel guns, I would avoid them. I work with Stainless Steel in most of my machine work. Primarily because it's for the food industry and rusting is not good for food production. Stainless Steel is a weaker alloy, is much softer than steel and rubbing action of Stainless Steel will cause galling. When needing strength and not concerned about rust I select a good grade alloy of steel. There are some grades of Stainless Steel that are quite strong but I know of no Production type gun company using it.

Froneck

Posts : 844
Join date : 2014-04-05
Age : 70

Back to top Go down

Re: What makes a 1911 suitable for Bullseye Shooting

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum