And then there is the Long Line

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And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/26/2017, 3:06 pm

I was thinking that my shooting was coming around.  Groups were looking better indoors at 20yds.  I been shooting 20yd TF/RF targets doing SF only and only trying to keep most in the black and none out of the 8 ring.  That wound meet my expectations for now and would keep me in the high 80s to low 90s if I was keeping score.  Well being a beatiful day here in NE Florida with a mornong low of 43 and the 70s the rest of the day with no wind I headed to the outdoor range to see how I would do on the LL.  Had any of you been there you could have bought 4 nice BE guns cheap.  Rim Fire with the Nelson first target a 31 score with 3 off the paper.  Ok it was time to crack down really think trigger and follow through and just keeping them in the black.  That didn't help so I shot the 52-2 and at least all but one in the 7 ring.   LB 45 was next as I shoot it the best.  I have no idea where those bullets went.   Changed the elevation as it was set for 20yds and put a couple on paper.  Got the sand bag out of the Jeep and fired 5 in the 10 ring with a very nice group.  Now i know it is all me and went home.  Dry Fire a lot more and less range time.  Might have to rethink this BE sport and go back to Bench Rest Pistol which I really enjoy and now have a safe full of guns for it.  Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by james r chapman on 10/26/2017, 3:23 pm

Well, you could get a camera tripod to rest your forearm on when shooting. It might give you a less stressful result for awhile.
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/26/2017, 3:38 pm

james r chapman wrote:Well, you could get a camera tripod to rest your forearm on when shooting. It might give you a less stressful result for awhile.
Jim that is not a bad idea.  I have seen some home made PVC pipe stands that are being used by some youth programs.  I think the whole problem is trigger and grip as my wobble is in the black at 50yds.  On the 20yds indoors I hardly see any wobble at all.   I believe I am pulling the shoots as the trigger breaks and can see that as shots are not on call.  I have caught myself relaxing my grip as the shot breaks.  I will work on arm strength and dry fire before i give this up.  35 years of not shooting pistol has moved me from earning my Expert 45 medal in the Navy to the point I am at now.  That medal was earned with a 1911 that the barrel rattled in when it was locked up.  Now I have nice BE pistols and shoot like this.   Getting old sucks but at least I am still able to send lead down range.  Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by jglenn21 on 10/26/2017, 6:59 pm

as long as you're having fun.

or at least I keep telling myself that...
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by jmdavis on 10/26/2017, 7:52 pm

Blank target at 50 yards. Have you started the USMC workbook yet?
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/26/2017, 10:08 pm

jmdavis wrote:Blank target at 50 yards. Have you started the USMC workbook yet?
Sure have and am stuck on Lesson Two.  I been using 20yd targets indoor as I can't see the scoring lines anyway.  I bought the recommended targets with out the lines but seldom get a chance to shoot 25 or 50 yards.  

Yes I am still having fun and still want to make Master while I can still shoot.  Right now I would just like to get back to shooting expert.  Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/27/2017, 2:04 pm

Dry Firing today with the MantisX mounted on the scope tube on my Nelson.  If I am reading the lines right I was right the problem is after the shot breaks.   The wobble before the trigger pull is not bad the yellow during the pull is great then it gets bad.  A lot of dry fire and work on the follow through.  Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by zanemoseley on 10/27/2017, 9:12 pm

Don, I would recommend transitioning to using reduced 25 yard slow fire targets when you practice slow fire indoors at 20 yards. Most people I've met find the 25 yard slow fire target more challenging than the 50 yard slow fire. Using rapid fire targets for slow fire could boost your confidence or could set unrealistic expectations.

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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/27/2017, 11:11 pm

zanemoseley wrote:Don, I would recommend transitioning to using reduced 25 yard slow fire targets when you practice slow fire indoors at 20 yards. Most people I've met find the 25 yard slow fire target more challenging than the 50 yard slow fire. Using rapid fire targets for slow fire could boost your confidence or could set unrealistic expectations.
I will do that or switch to shooting 50 feet indoors at the proper target.  I just got a lot of these to punch holes in.  Do not know why I didn't buy 20yd SF targets.  Did a bunch of dry fire today using the MantisX and averaged 87 with a 99.4 that really felt good.  Got to get to the point of every shot being in the high 90s.  Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by jmdavis on 10/28/2017, 4:07 pm

Don't focus on the scores with the trainers. A benefit of blank wall training is no bad reinforcement. I have yet to see people who use the SCATT or RIKA or whatever trainer to shoot simulated matches not be disappointed when they live shoot. 

The purpose of the trainer is to diagnose issues and allow you to test fixes for those issues.


Last edited by jmdavis on 10/28/2017, 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/28/2017, 4:21 pm

I am missing something here with this blank wall dry fire.  I can see the effects of a bad trigger pull when doing it with iron sights as they are easy to see the alignment change.  I shoot with a dot and can not see the dot move om a blank wall.  I need something to reference the dot too.   With the MantisX I can tell a good shot from a bad shot with out even looking at the screen.  Going back over the shots and looking at the traces I can see what I did good or bad.  It has also made dry fire more fun.  I have a Scatt but it is just to much trouble to use.  Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by jmdavis on 10/28/2017, 4:27 pm

If you can do it with the device, why not on the blank wall?

Using the trainer to find and fix problems is good. But the simulated scores dont matter. Time in the 10 ring could matter. The size of
 your hold could matter. The alignment of the sights and eye and trigger control definitely matter. But the scores the machine tells you do not. 

Learn how to shoot a good shot. Repeat.
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Jon Eulette on 10/28/2017, 4:30 pm

Don if you cannot see the Dot change on a bad shot on a blank wall I would question if your really focused on it? Not meaning to be condescending. Should be easier to see crappy dot movement than iron sight change. The dot will always show more movemnet. Focus on red dot aligning it in center of scope tube. Treat tube like the rear sight.
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/28/2017, 6:22 pm

Jon you are not condescending you are just trying to help and I need a lot of that.  I will try to put more time on the blank wall.  My trigger pulls are not so bad that the dot changes position in the scope that I can see.  The fact is I could shoot with my eyes closed and feel when I have a bad shot. It is a reflex in the wrist that seams to move the gun in a circle.  My thinking is I am unlocking my wrist on trigger break or sometimes just before the break.  Maybe I am not locking the wrist enough on those shots.  I feel a good shot and know it was a X before scoping it.  I just need to be able to do that consistently.  I have wrapped up  so much money in this BE sport that I would pay a trainer which there isn't any around here so you guys are all I got.   I have 7 BE pistols now and enjoy shooting everyone of them and hope to shoot the best ones at a Master level if i live that long.  Being retired and not married I have 7 days a week to shoot but have to take a break for fishing now and then.  heading to a blank wall. Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/28/2017, 6:55 pm

Removed the target grips and put the slabs back on.  Feels better.  Yes I can see the dot in the scope moving just a little but not when I am applying trigger pressure.  Keeping the trigger moving and through the break I am not seeing movement.  Then blank wall is easier as it takes away the spot to try to keep the dot on and buts the whole focus on the trigger and follow through.  Thanks I will work at this.  Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Jack H on 10/28/2017, 9:20 pm

Magload wrote:I am missing something here with this blank wall dry fire.  I can see the effects of a bad trigger pull when doing it with iron sights as they are easy to see the alignment change.  I shoot with a dot and can not see the dot move om a blank wall.  I need something to reference the dot too.   With the MantisX I can tell a good shot from a bad shot with out even looking at the screen.  Going back over the shots and looking at the traces I can see what I did good or bad.  It has also made dry fire more fun.  I have a Scatt but it is just to much trouble to use.  Don

The wall does not need to be blank.  A pattern on the wall that you do not focus on works.  Checkerboard.  Texture.  Cowboy print wall paper.  Just don't have a spot that draws focus.
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/28/2017, 9:53 pm

The MantisX works with dry firing at a blank wall.  With out the paster on the wall i had been using my average for 10 shots went up into the 90s.   I don't take that number as a indication of what score I would be shooting as it has no way of knowing what target or distance it would be scoring like the Scatt does.  I look at it as how my wobble/trigger/follow through is doing and if I am improving.  I have always been a gadget person.  Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Ed Hall on 10/28/2017, 10:13 pm

As Jon said, use the ring of the scope as you would the rear sight to refine your trigger application.  But, it is also important to have a determined enough action that is somewhat fast so as not to cover up errors.  If your trigger operation is too slow you won't be able to detect the subtle pressures that deflect the shot when the hammer falls.  All major pressures on the gun need to be balanced in line with the bore and consistent from shot to shot.  The trigger action needs to be the same with and without a "distracting" bull.

I'd also like to address electronic trainers a bit:

IMNSHO, the best result that can come from using an electronic trainer is in learning to "see" your operation in great enough detail that you no longer need the trainer.  At that point, the only real advantage is the ability to aggregate several shots' details.  You may ask, "What are you talking about?"  Fair enough question!  What I am referring to is "seeing" and even "feeling" (which the trainer can't do) every detail about what you experienced during the shot, comparing what you saw to what the trainer recorded, and learning to pick up every nuance before looking at the screen.  When you can do that, you can set the trainer aside, and both dry and live fire will tell you everything you need to know to refine your shot plan and fire great scores.  Important in this is to become a great observer without being a tinkerer during the shot.  Effect changes and perform evaluations between shots and then observe for details to see what works.  Record what works in your notes and refine your process.  Then, stick with that process at matches.

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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/28/2017, 10:35 pm

Ed and John you both have provided great info that I can use.   I am going to try my best to follow through what you two have said and think it should really help.  Up to this point i just been putting bullets down range 4 to 5 times a week now for 10 months.  I petty well mastered two hand shooting in the year before switching to BE just couldn't do the run and gun stuff but no problem shooting zero down.  This BE is a lot harder and you Master are Top Guns in my eyes.  I could have out shot you guys back in the 70s when I was shooting competition field archery as 4 out of 4 arrows in a nickle at 25 yards  and a silver dollar at 50 was normal.  Way easier then this sport. Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by mikemyers on 10/29/2017, 5:39 am

Just a thought from left field - instead of going to the range with four guns, a scoring pad, and a lot of high expectations, why don't you put away the electronics for a few days, go to the range with just one gun, whichever you most enjoy shooting, and just spend a day enjoying it?  Just relax, mentally, physically, and instead of shooting targets, just a blank piece of paper.  

If you're then back to your old self, shooting well and enjoying the day, someone here will have a better idea than me on how to get that to relate back to BE.    :-)

(...and if nothing changes, you'll still have had an enjoyable day shooting your favorite gun!)
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by tceva on 10/29/2017, 6:20 am

Don,  I was glad Ed put the electronic training in perspective.  It is great for breaking up a string of dry fire days, but it really impedes the mental development end of it. Personally, I would gauge a dry fire session by a MantisX score, when in reality I should have been focusing on the fundamentals.  Don't be too hard on yourself.  The journey may be the best part.  I would like to hear every step, both good and bad.
My .02
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by CR10X on 10/29/2017, 6:44 am

Listen to Ed.

If you can't replay the shot in your mind's eye from the beginning of the trigger operation to the movement of the sight off the aiming area from recoil, then you ain't seeing enough.

Calling the shot is not capturing a picture, its a movie.  Watch it until the end, then replay it to understand what was / is happening.

As I mentioned to someone yesterday, the first step in proper trigger control is to keep your eyes open and see everything that is happening with the sight / dot. 

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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by mikemyers on 10/29/2017, 6:52 am

CR10X wrote:...... the first step in proper trigger control is to keep your eyes open and see everything that is happening with the sight / dot....

Has anything been written about how to train the eye to do that?  Video is often done at 60 frames per second.  I get the feeling that better shooters are seeing far, far more than that.  As for me, I've never been able to "see" the video you mention, as it happens too quickly.  It's as if my eyes are working in slow motion, so they miss what I'm struggling to see.  

It's maybe one of these things that once you learn how to do it, it's easy, but for me it's still impossible, with any gun I shoot.  I understand how important it is, but not how to learn how to do it.  Maybe someone here can post a thread on how to train your mind and eye to do this.
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Aprilian on 10/29/2017, 8:44 am

Don,  I am dry firing with red dot on a blank off-white wall.   I can see the dot move when I miss-trigger the shot.   The question that I have from your description is whether you are focusing on the blank wall or the dot.    There are different opinions out there on which is correct, I subscribe to Zinn's focus on the target approach.   That means when I dry fire on the wall, I am looking at the roller nap and I see the dot move in relationship to the nap.

Are you changing where you focus between your dry fire on target and dry fire on a blank wall?
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by mikemyers on 10/29/2017, 8:51 am

Magload wrote:..... I have no idea where those bullets went.   Changed the elevation as it was set for 20yds and put a couple on paper. .....

All the suggestions here would allow someone to do better, but I don't think they can explain why suddenly bullets aren't even hitting the paper.    That's why I wrote what I did.
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

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