And then there is the Long Line

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And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/26/2017, 3:06 pm

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I was thinking that my shooting was coming around.  Groups were looking better indoors at 20yds.  I been shooting 20yd TF/RF targets doing SF only and only trying to keep most in the black and none out of the 8 ring.  That wound meet my expectations for now and would keep me in the high 80s to low 90s if I was keeping score.  Well being a beatiful day here in NE Florida with a mornong low of 43 and the 70s the rest of the day with no wind I headed to the outdoor range to see how I would do on the LL.  Had any of you been there you could have bought 4 nice BE guns cheap.  Rim Fire with the Nelson first target a 31 score with 3 off the paper.  Ok it was time to crack down really think trigger and follow through and just keeping them in the black.  That didn't help so I shot the 52-2 and at least all but one in the 7 ring.   LB 45 was next as I shoot it the best.  I have no idea where those bullets went.   Changed the elevation as it was set for 20yds and put a couple on paper.  Got the sand bag out of the Jeep and fired 5 in the 10 ring with a very nice group.  Now i know it is all me and went home.  Dry Fire a lot more and less range time.  Might have to rethink this BE sport and go back to Bench Rest Pistol which I really enjoy and now have a safe full of guns for it.  Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/29/2017, 1:28 pm

mikemyers wrote:Just a thought from left field - instead of going to the range with four guns, a scoring pad, and a lot of high expectations, why don't you put away the electronics for a few days, go to the range with just one gun, whichever you most enjoy shooting, and just spend a day enjoying it?  Just relax, mentally, physically, and instead of shooting targets, just a blank piece of paper.  

If you're then back to your old self, shooting well and enjoying the day, someone here will have a better idea than me on how to get that to relate back to BE.    :-)

(...and if nothing changes, you'll still have had an enjoyable day shooting your favorite gun!)
Thanks Mike I carry 4 guns in the box but one would sure lighten up the 40 pound box.  Lately I just been shooting the Nelson but want to start shooting a new to me M41.  Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/29/2017, 1:46 pm

Aprilian wrote:Don,  I am dry firing with red dot on a blank off-white wall.   I can see the dot move when I miss-trigger the shot.   The question that I have from your description is whether you are focusing on the blank wall or the dot.    There are different opinions out there on which is correct, I subscribe to Zinn's focus on the target approach.   That means when I dry fire on the wall, I am looking at the roller nap and I see the dot move in relationship to the nap.

Are you changing where you focus between your dry fire on target and dry fire on a blank wall?
The lense in my eye doesn't change focus the one in my right eye is set for distance the left for reading by wearing glasses both will see distance or by looking through the bifocals they will see up close.  There fore i would say I am focused on the wall/target but have computer glasses that would put the dot or front sight in good focus and can just make out the blurred target.  After putting more effort into it I am seeing the movement.  It is not much and the MantisX shows that with most shots in the mid 90s and even a few 99.6 shots.  The trigger time is well with in the 10 ring on their display it is afrer the shot break where my movement is bad.  Here again and correct me if I am wrong.  98 does not mean that on a proper BE target you would have hit a X.  The MantisX unlike the Scatt only records movement.  Using it on a blank wall i see improvement in trigger time so I maybe snatching the shot to get it off with a target.   I am learning it is a long road but a fun one to travel.  Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/29/2017, 1:59 pm

mikemyers wrote:
Magload wrote:..... I have no idea where those bullets went.   Changed the elevation as it was set for 20yds and put a couple on paper. .....

All the suggestions here would allow someone to do better, but I don't think they can explain why suddenly bullets aren't even hitting the paper.    That's why I wrote what I did.
Mike that is easy to explain.  If at 20 yards I an keeping them in a 5 inch circle with one or two pulled shot in a 10 inch then at 50 yards that is 80% in a 12.5 inch circle and 20% in a 25 inch circle.  That puts a lot of shots off the paper.  Now my wobble looks a lot worst at 50 yards so I probably had poor trigger squeeze even with trying to do it right.  Thus my subject line.  And then there is the long Line.  It sure looks a long ways when you been shooting 20 yards all month.  Even 5 yards more makes a difference.  Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by lablover on 10/29/2017, 2:55 pm

jmdavis wrote:Blank target at 50 yards. Have you started the USMC workbook yet?
IS this the same workbook posted in the sticky?  Need to print that bad boy out

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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Jack H on 10/29/2017, 3:13 pm

Is there any point in going to the "workbook" when you already do hit the black most all of the time, and if not in the black, you recognize why.
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by jmdavis on 10/29/2017, 6:12 pm

Marines do, or at least some do.
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/29/2017, 7:09 pm

Aprilian wrote:Don,  I am dry firing with red dot on a blank off-white wall.   I can see the dot move when I miss-trigger the shot.   The question that I have from your description is whether you are focusing on the blank wall or the dot.    There are different opinions out there on which is correct, I subscribe to Zinn's focus on the target approach.   That means when I dry fire on the wall, I am looking at the roller nap and I see the dot move in relationship to the nap.

Are you changing where you focus between your dry fire on target and dry fire on a blank wall?
How far are you standing from the wall to be able to see the roller nap?  Maybe I am dry firing to far from the wall.  That or just going blind.  I have a eye refraction Tuesday I will see how the vision is.  Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Aprilian on 10/29/2017, 8:49 pm

Muzzle is less than 3" from wall.
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Ed Hall on 10/29/2017, 9:19 pm

Magload wrote:...
I have a eye refraction Tuesday I will see how the vision is.  Don
Just to note that for anybody heading to their eye care professional, if interested, I have a document on my sight written by an eye professional to describe shooters' concerns to an eye care professional.  If you are interested in presenting it to your doctor, you may wish to provide it ahead of your appointment, if your doctor is receptive:

BULLSEYE SHOOTERS' GUIDE FOR THE EYECARE PROFESSIONAL

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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by mikemyers on 10/30/2017, 4:29 am

Magload wrote:
......If at 20 yards I an keeping them in a 5 inch circle with one or two pulled shot in a 10 inch then at 50 yards that is 80% in a 12.5 inch circle and 20% in a 25 inch circle.  That puts a lot of shots off the paper.  Now my wobble looks a lot worst at 50 yards so I probably had poor trigger squeeze even with trying to do it right.  .......   It sure looks a long ways when you been shooting 20 yards all month.  Even 5 yards more makes a difference.....

I don't see things that way.  It's all mathematical.  If you're shooting some number of inches, say at 25 yards, your grouping should be twice as large at 50, and half as large at 12.  Your "wobble" is the same, but the distance amplifies the error.

I don't think the distance makes much of a difference - some, but not a lot.  Switching from 15 yards to 25 yards for me just made the grouping proportionately bigger.

How all this affects the score is something I can't relate to yet.  All I "see" is the group.  If you want to minimize the wobble, you can work on that at any distance.  

The targets will "look" much worse at the longer distance, but that doesn't mean you're shooting worse.   If you get flyers in a 10" group at 25 yards, mathematically it will be twice that at 50.  If you need to get used to shooting what will look like a tiny target at 50, you can shoot at one half that size at 25.

(I'm sure there is much more to it than my simplification here, but I don't think you should be too hard on yourself for shooting targets at 50 yards that "look" worse than those shot at 20.)


One more thing - people told me years ago that I should take one gun to the range to practice with, and get fully used to that one gun.  Switching guns like you're doing sounds to me like a lot of fun, but a terrible way to improve.  I'm even worse - if I start shooting one gun, I take only that one gun to the range with me for many weeks.  I hope it's helping me, but shooting more guns would be a lot more fun!  (...until I had to clean all of them!)
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by xmastershooter on 10/30/2017, 6:08 am

Just remember that the the scoring rings have different values for the 25 and 50 yard targets and that we shoot sustained fire at 25 yards. Although I’ve read that we should shoot SF at RF pace, when training I find that I must work on both SF “and” RF to get a meaningful training session. SF and RF may be similar but they are different enough for me. Training with one helps the other. Don’t be too concerned with actual scores. The best advice for positive thinking came during the Zins- Moody pistol clinic many years ago. Add all of the personal best for each individual matches of a 2700 which includes SF, NMC, TF and RF and you will arrive at your potential score.

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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by davekp on 10/30/2017, 7:23 am

The group size at 50 yds will be MORE THAN twice the group size at 25 yds. This is because the bullet is traveling slower from 25 to 50 than it was from muzzle to 25 yds.

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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by mikemyers on 10/30/2017, 7:48 am

davekp wrote:The group size at 50 yds will be MORE THAN twice the group size at 25 yds. This is because the bullet is traveling slower from 25 to 50 than it was from muzzle to 25 yds.

Trying to think this through.  If the bullets slowed down to next to nothing, there would be no group, as they'd all be in the dirt.  So, if the bullets did slow down, and they all fell, let's say, an inch lower because gravity is pulling on them for a longer time, why would that expand the group?  What am I missing?  Seems to me that the group would be lower, but I can't understand why it would be larger.

Do faster bullets create a smaller group than slower bullets?

Has anyone ever measured the change in bullet speed over distance?  Curious.
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by USSR on 10/30/2017, 8:47 am

mikemyers wrote:

Do faster bullets create a smaller group than slower bullets?

Has anyone ever measured the change in bullet speed over distance?  Curious.

Mike,

Think about this.   I test 2 loads using the same components except for using a little more or less of the same powder.   The load with slightly more powder has a muzzle velocity of 800 fps and is producing 2" groups at whatever distance, while the load with slightly less powder has a muzzle velocity of 750 fps and is producing 3" groups at the same distance.   Of course, the lower velocity load could be more accurate than the higher velocity load, this is why we do load development.   There is your answer.

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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by mikemyers on 10/30/2017, 9:34 am

Don, various discussion on the internet, such as   http://forum.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=212579 neither prove nor disprove any of this, except that "certain loads" work better in "certain guns".  Bullet speed is just one of those factors.

On the other hand, everyone in another discussion agreed that "wind drift" would be worse with a slower bullet.
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by USSR on 10/30/2017, 9:40 am

mikemyers wrote:Don, various discussion on the internet, such as   http://forum.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=212579 neither prove nor disprove any of this, except that "certain loads" work better in "certain guns".  Bullet speed is just one of those factors.

On the other hand, everyone in another discussion agreed that "wind drift" would be worse with a slower bullet.

Mike,

That's why I specified "same components".   Only difference is bullet speed.

Don

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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by jmdavis on 10/30/2017, 9:44 am

The major wind effects on pistol shooters are on the shooter, not the bullet. Wind that moves the shooters arm has a much more dramatic effect than wind that moves the bullet,
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/30/2017, 1:48 pm

Range Report. Indoor 20yds  20yd target.  All it info I received from all of you and the blanl wall dry firing for three days helped.  Maybe putting slab grips back on and one of Frank's trigger shoe could have helped also as i did my dry firing with them on.  The target grips I was using were really petty but were like gripping a greased pig.  I pounded the 10 ring today.  Yes I pulled a few shots but I knew I had before scoping them.  I had some just out of the black but knew they were going to be a little high when the trigger broke.  I cut the dot brightness down one click in the 9000SC which made the dot a third the size and shot my best target ever.  I didn't score it but think it was a 96 5x.  Firing SF on a RF target.

Mike  I only took one gun my 4 gun box with 4 1911 style guns went from 40 lbs to something my old back didn't mind.   Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by james r chapman on 10/30/2017, 5:18 pm

The angular deviation from bore centerline.

5 moa at 100yd =5"
@ 50yd, 2.5"
25yd, 1.25"
50 ft, 1 large hole.
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by xmastershooter on 10/30/2017, 6:39 pm

I just realized that with shooting ranges closing down in the Bay Area of California, my colleagues and I still have the privilege of shooting 50 yds at Sunnyvale Rod & Gun Club. The next closest range with a 50 yard distance would be about 2 1/2 hours away. Ok for a 2700 match but a bit far for a training session. I think some of our shooters who post may not have much of a chance to shoot at 50 yards but those who do should embrace the the chance to do so.

I find it amusing that some days the bullseye at 50 yards looks big and some days it looks small, which is of course is my state of mind at that time. Shooting a 70 or a 90+ score would not be due to small difference in powder charge or wind factor on the bullet. Take the time to have a productive training session at 50 yards. I agree that if one trains only at 20 or 25 yards, 50 yards will look a little daunting, except for the masters and high masters. Magload (Don), try a shooting training session with only the long line for the day. By the fifth to tenth target you will experience a big improvement.

By the way, don’t think too much. Quote from Brian Zins, “I’m not smart enough to shoot a bad shot!” (Hope I didn’t butchered his quote)

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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/30/2017, 7:06 pm

Now that the weather is cooling off here in NE Florida I am going to start to try shooting the outdoor range once a week again.  Believe it or not it was 38 here this morning.  I slept till 10.  Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by mikemyers on 10/30/2017, 11:56 pm

xmastershooter wrote:.......I agree that if one trains only at 20 or 25 yards, 50 yards will look a little daunting......

What I tried to do long ago was to take a target for any distance, then with Photoshop make a print to show what it would look like at a different distance.  If I wanted to be comfortable with an 8" target at 50 yards, I would print one with a diameter of 8" x 20/50 = ______.   I'll leave it for you to do the math.  That size target at 20 yards should look just as daunting.

I haven't yet tried shooting at 50 yards, ever, but plan to do so as soon as I get back to the range.  I guess I need to find out what the "official" target is.

(...and I plan to "cheat" first, dry-firing in my apartment at 15 feet, with a target size calculated the same way.)
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by xmastershooter on 10/31/2017, 4:44 am

I really have fun shooting at 50yards with the .45 pistol, although challenging at times. I find it relaxing although frustrating sometimes but one cannot put any emotions shooting SF. Just the slightest blip and the shot may be in the white. These blips may be from lost of focus, letting the wind affect the shot process, taking too long for the shot to break, and poor follow through to name a few.
I’m still working on consistency. Shoot one shot at a time. Don’t let a good string or a bad shot affect your next shot. Once during a match, John Bickar with his darn good eyesight called 3 of my shots that were close to the scoring rings as “out.” Of course don’t get upset and allow the scorer an easier job on the next target. Something clicked in my mind and on the next SF, 8 of my 10’s were within 2 3/4”, with 5 shots within 1 1/4”. I need to replicate that state of mind to be more consistent. If I can summarize what I’ve seen with the good shooters, they have strong and relaxed minds during a match as evidenced by their eyes and demeanor.

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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by davekp on 10/31/2017, 7:34 am

mikemyers wrote:
davekp wrote:The group size at 50 yds will be MORE THAN twice the group size at 25 yds. This is because the bullet is traveling slower from 25 to 50 than it was from muzzle to 25 yds.

Trying to think this through.  If the bullets slowed down to next to nothing, there would be no group, as they'd all be in the dirt.  So, if the bullets did slow down, and they all fell, let's say, an inch lower because gravity is pulling on them for a longer time, why would that expand the group?  What am I missing?  Seems to me that the group would be lower, but I can't understand why it would be larger.

Do faster bullets create a smaller group than slower bullets?

Has anyone ever measured the change in bullet speed over distance?  Curious.
The issue is angular velocity of the barrel while the bullet is traveling down the bore. The cross range vector of the bullet  is constant, but the displacement from 25 to 50 is greater due to longer flight time.
Your analysis would be correct only if the group size at 25 was zero.
If we were on the moon, with no air to slow down the bullet, the group at 50 WOULD BE double that at 25.
BTW, this effect is why we need to "lead" a crossing target with a shotgun.

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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by mikemyers on 10/31/2017, 8:30 am

davekp wrote:......The issue is angular velocity of the barrel while the bullet is traveling down the bore. The cross range vector of the bullet  is constant, but the displacement from 25 to 50 is greater due to longer flight time.
Your analysis would be correct only if the group size at 25 was zero.
If we were on the moon, with no air to slow down the bullet, the group at 50 WOULD BE double that at 25.......
If I understand you, the resistance of the air is slowing the bullet down, which would make me ask why we shoot bullets that are least aerodynamic.   My next question is why don't we shoot even faster bullets, for a better group size?

I don't understand what you mean by "the angular velocity of the barrel", or "the cross range vector", or why the displacement is more.  Maybe I should ask this in a new thread.  

Meanwhile, back in this thread, 
if the group size with a faster bullet at 25 yards is:    4 inches
How much larger might it be at 50 yards?

if the group size with a slower bullet at 25 yards is:    4 inches
How much larger might it be at 50 yards?

Are we talking about inches, tenth's of an inch, hundredths of an inch?

From what you guys are saying, the group size at 50 inches should be more than double the group size at 25
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