Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

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Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by Mike38 on Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:20 pm

Training this morning. Got a new Nill grip for my Benelli MP95 in .22lr. Had to move 2 clicks right because of the different grips I guess. Got serious and put 5 shots timed fire at 50 foot target. Scoped the results. Looked like three 10's and two X's. Walked down range to confirm. Yep, three 10's and two X's. Shot the second string, two tens and three 8's. Damn! I got all flustered thinking I was going to score a 100. Oh well, I know it's possible. I know I can do it. Someday......


Anyhow, I proceeded to shoot a 260-6x for my postal match. I'll take it. Liking those Nill grips for sure.
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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by MarkOue on Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:40 pm

Mike38 wrote:Yep, three 10's and two X's. Shot the second string, two tens and three 8's. Damn! I got all flustered thinking I was going to score a 100. 

Been there, done that.   More than once...

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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by CR10X on Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:08 pm

Scoping the target is never a bad idea.

Understanding a training opportunity when it presents itself?

Priceless.

We all have opportunities to really learn something now and then.  The hard part is recognizing them when they show up.  

CR


(People will occasionally stumble over the truth.  However, most of them will pick themselves up and continue on as if nothing ever happened.  - Winston Churchill)


Last edited by CR10X on Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:50 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by john bickar on Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:26 pm

Yup.

How are you going to shoot a 100 without putting yourself in the position of having 9 10s and Xs on the target?
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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by Ed Hall on Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:13 am

john bickar wrote:Yup.

How are you going to shoot a 100 without putting yourself in the position of having 9 10s and Xs on the target?
Then there was one of my mentors that told me, "You can't shoot a 100.  The best you can shoot is a 10."  I find seeing how many tens I can string together sometimes helps...

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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by xmastershooter on Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:08 am

I consider myself as a mid level shooter with an occasional well shot target, and certainly not at the level of these esteemed shooters that replied but perhaps my experience may help.  At a Bob Chow match as a novice, my first 5 shots SF were 3 "10's" and 2 "x's".  I had the exact same thoughts of cleaning my first target and as my heart rate increased, I ended with a 96.

I posted my problem to the Bullseye-List and Grayson Palmer replied that I should expect a 10 after every shot. As time went, shooting 7 or 8 10's in a row did not not affected my mind, heart rate, or shot process although I'm not doing it as often.  Some suggestions were not to scope after the first couple of rounds, while IIRC someone wrote that we should have the balls to scope. 

I shot some good and poor scores scoping and not scoping.  Now, I do scope often if not after all shots to get the required feedback.  So, expect to shoot 10's and don't hesitate to scope.

BTW Cecil, your Velcro gun box strap works wonders! Thanks.

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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by CR10X on Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:52 am

You're welcome.  I've only got a couple of the Velcro straps left after all these years.  I do have one hot pink Velcro strap left that I'm saving for Chris M. to go with his gun box if I can ever remember to get it to him!   Smile

An interesting item to consider for training / mental management would be how may consecutive 10's (at 50 of course) have been fired, in training and in matches.  That's one thing I keep track of in my journal.  

CR

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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by 285wannab on Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:58 am

I think scoping is fine.  Tells you what's going on instead of guessing.  What I think didn't help you was giving up your position and walking down to double check what you saw in the scope. When your hot keep shooting.  Besides you can't do that in a match and we are suppose to practice like it's a match right?  Don't worry when you start getting close to shooting a 100 it will just be a matter of time until you do.

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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by jwax on Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:18 pm

This topic probably belongs in "Fundamentals", but here goes-

Ask yourself why you're scoping. If it is to confirm reddot settings, or trying out new ammo, or confirm some "doping" due to lighting conditions, go ahead and scope. Otherwise, the thought you'll get after a scoped shot will be, a) Wow! I'm good!, or b) That was a terrible shot!, or c) That's the way I shoot.(Sigh). None of which will help the next shot.

Shooting without thinking about the shooting (or immediate gratification/confirmation of self-worth) is where your best shots will be, IMHO.

How many times have you scoped a 7, and put the next shot- as another 7?
Staying unerringly focused on the X for each shot counts. Shots downrange are unchangeable history.

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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by Jack H on Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:41 pm

Shoot a seven.  Call a seven.  Scope a seven.

YES!  I was right!

I guess that's positive.........   cheers
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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by Jack H on Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:54 pm

It all depends on what your head does with what you see.

And it's not just scoping that can mess up your head. 
An EIC I shot had a real decent SF.  Then a real good TF.  During the TF repair for RF, a real nice pistolsmith said of the TF target "Nice target".  All through RF my head echoed "nice target".  RF stunk.
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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by CR10X on Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:02 pm

Sorry, but I disagree with the thought, practice or process of:

Otherwise, the thought you'll get after a scoped shot will be, a) Wow! I'm good!, or b) That was a terrible shot!, or c) That's the way I shoot.(Sigh).

As I have asked before, what is the difference between a Master / High Master scoping a shot and Marksman / Sharpshooter / Expert, etc. scoping a shot?

A Marksman, / Sharpshooter / Expert is probably looking to see where the shot went.  The Master / High Master is simply confirming the shot was as called.  

Therefore, in my opinion, the thoughts express above do not and should not come into play.  If they do, then that's the mental training that needs to be addressed.  The technical training is learning to shot the best shot we can and accurately call every shot.  

Ask yourself why you're scoping.

Now that's a great question. But if it ain't to confirm the call, then we're just being a spectator.

CR

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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by Jon Eulette on Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:07 pm

+1
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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by jwax on Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:32 pm

Appreciate the ideas expressed here!
Now, a dumb question: What is the point or purpose in seeing if your shot was on call?
Why is calling the shot so important?
Assuming the gun is ok, and the shooter is following their shot process, why wouldn't shots be on call? Or is that the point- seeing if the gun and process were executed correctly?
Obviously, have not been at bulls-eye as long as some here, but always willing to learn from those that have! Thanks for your inputs!

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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by mikemyers on Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:52 am

My thoughts are that for better or worse, I'd like to know where each shot went, but quite often I'll fire 5 rounds, and then check on the group.  When I get better, I might want to know every single shot.  Even so, I will never modify my point of aim by what I see on the target.  If one shot is "off", and the others are close to it, that is fine by me - just need a sight adjustment.  I know others who change their point of aim based on every shot they take. I've never been able to convince them that this is silly. 


Suggestion - read the article Dave Salyer wrote about "area aiming".  If you are good enough to shoot a 4" grouping, your next shot can be anywhere within that area.  Expecting more is useless, until you get the ability to shoot a smaller group, and then a still smaller group, and so on. 

What I wrote is written as a novice in Bullseye shooting - I hope eventually to consider every single shot individually.  I've accepted that this comes mostly from learning "the fundamentals", along with lots of dry-fire practice.  At least that's what seems to be working for me.


I'll let someone else explain about "calling shot".  I'm still trying to do it.  I would love to know where the bullet hit on the target before ever looking at the target.  I also think it will help me understand what I might be doing incorrectly.
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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by Slartybartfast on Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:48 am

CR10X wrote:You're welcome.  I've only got a couple of the Velcro straps left after all these years.  I do have one hot pink Velcro strap left that I'm saving for Chris M. to go with his gun box if I can ever remember to get it to him!   Smile

An interesting item to consider for training / mental management would be how may consecutive 10's (at 50 of course) have been fired, in training and in matches.  That's one thing I keep track of in my journal.  

CR

Just a funny/stupid thought that came to mind:

To really encourage and reward consecutive X's, or maybe increase the drama of a SF match, maybe change the way targets are scored?
Instead of just adding points and 10.01 for X's, for a maximum of 10.1 for a perfect 10X, score targets similar to how bowling is scored. No "spares" in shooting, so maybe a perfect 10X becomes a 200 target. Each X scores 10 plus the next shot. (Also means that an X as the last shot means you get an 11th shot on target.)

Of course some form of electronic scoring or camera/scope to record each individual shot would be required to keep things moving along and to track when extra shots were warranted or not.

Have to say my record keeping is pretty non-existent. I've only been recording dates and scores that qualify for SFC marksmanship badges. And my reused backing target does attest to my keeping most shots within the repair centers. I need to start with recording some more basics before dreaming up more/new games.
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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by jmdavis on Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:06 am

If shooting a 100-xX or 100-10X isn't enough to get you excited why would a 110 or whatever be? I'm happy when I shoot a clean and happier when its a clean with a high X count. Heck I make it my avatar when its a 100-10x. 

I don't keep detail track of scores. I do keep particularly good targets. I log my scores, but what I care more about are my notes for the match. What went well, what should I change, what did I learn.
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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by Slartybartfast on Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:29 am

jmdavis wrote:If shooting a 100-xX or 100-10X isn't enough to get you excited why would a 110 or whatever be? I'm happy when I shoot a clean and happier when its a clean with a high X count. Heck I make it my avatar when its a 100-10x.
Don't get me wrong, anything approaching a 90 is enough to excite me.
But during bowling league, the increased pressure of mounting open frames, and the frame-by-frame importance of having to get a spare of strike and the pressure of needing a high score(s) on top of a spare/strike(s) adds to the mental side of the game and what needs to be filtered out to get the shot process consistent.
In bowling, what is far more important to internalise is the feeling and process of 4 or five strikes in a row. The scoring re-enforces that.
Although I find that my thought/shot process for bowling and bullseye are very similar. Live in the moment and only the current shot counts. Every shot is aimed and shot to be on target, keep external pressures out of mind.
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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by Magload on Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:03 pm

Shooting for me is like bowling,  to many gutter balls.  Don
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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by CR10X on Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:53 am

First off, I just want to say that my perspective when making posts is directly related to shooting "Bullseye" as a sport, not just a title of a forum, and in general trying to get better at the sport of NRA "Precision Pistol", formerly known as "Bullseye Pistol" and then "Conventional Pistol".  Additionally, if you cannot tell from my previous posts, my perspective is that the shooter is the part of the process that requires the most time, training, and work to get results, ie. shoot 10's. 

What is the point or purpose in seeing if your shot was on call?
Why is calling the shot so important?
Assuming the gun is ok, and the shooter is following their shot process, why wouldn't shots be on call? Or is that the point- seeing if the gun and process were executed correctly?

Yes, that is the point, seeing if the shooter, process and gun were executed properly and if we saw everything correctly. 

Even if we're absolutely perfect every time, there needs to be visual feedback needed to complete the shot correctly.  This is "calling the shot".  If we are not calling the shot, then how are we monitoring and evaluating our performance during the shot process.  How are we getting feedback on how the trigger press, grip pressure, etc. are affecting the sight alignment (and to a lesser extent the sight picture)? How do we learn the proper timing during the wobble to complete the shot process?  (Remember, no matter what anyone says, the shooter and pistol combination is always moving.  The goal is consistency and completing the shot at the minimum wobble area.) 

Scoping the shot the shot is important because it verifies (or does not verify) what we saw (or thought we saw) during the shot process though completion. The feedback will be confirmation or not confirming the call and everything up to that point.  From a mental aspect this is not the time to grade the shot, get excited or disappointed; but simply review the performance and note any items or visual cues as needed.  

In addition, shots can not be on call for any number of reasons, mostly due to shooter performance such as physical changes as we tire, visual distraction or loss of focus, mental lapse, etc., but also sometimes mechanical or physical conditions.  We get lighting changes, scope mount screws come loose, we forget to adjust the sights, etc. etc. 

Remember train hard, shoot easy.  We're not going to shoot a match consistently better than we shoot when training.  Training on the individual components and then combining them into a complete shot process is the best way to get consistent improvement.  (At least for me. YMMV depending on model year, fuel and commitment, not available in all areas.)

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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by dronning on Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:25 am

^^ What Cecil said, this is why when you talk to the Masters and High Masters they will tell you this sport is more than 95% mental.
- Dave
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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by xmastershooter on Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:38 am

Cecil wrote:
Remember train hard, shoot easy
Brief, but profound last 2 words.  Well stated!

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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by mikemyers on Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:58 am

I need to live that way.  I know that I was absolutely NOT doing the "shoot easy" part.  I know, I understand, and I thought too much, but I have this overwhelming urge to aim for perfection.  

Whe all the holes were surrounding the X, but nothing hitting the X, that is statistically improbable.   I figure now that I was "trying" for the X.  

When I started doing the "area aiming", things got easier, and much better.  It's much more "relaxing" to try to keep the dot or sights somewhere within an area, than to be trying to shoot the exact center of the area.

Stupid as it sounds, because I was trying for the X, that's the reason why none of my shots went there.

"Shoot Easy."   Good words to remember, until it too becomes a habit.
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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by Magload on Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:48 am

Same here Mike.  I started scoring practice targets again and just shooting my wobble and mt scores have went up.  The whole point being is that what you see is history and I think when you get old it is more like ancient history.  by the time my eye see I am on the X and my brain says squeeze and my finger squeezes the POI has drifted to the 8 ring.  Slow reaction time now days.  There fore squeeze till it breaks in the wobble area or put abort the shot.  See these guys can teach a old dog new tricks.  Don
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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

Post by mikemyers on Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:36 am

You know how counter-intuitive this sounds?  The best way to hit the X is by not trying to hit the X ???   I think most people would think I'm crazy.

My proof was suggested in books, and in this forum with an equally silly sounding idea - remove the X completely.   Just shoot at a piece of white paper.  Instantly I did better.

(My brother thinks this is completely silly, and that I've "lost it", therefore won't even try it.  He wants his shoot-n-see.)
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Re: Sometimes scoping your target is a bad idea.

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