Accuracy vs SD/ ES

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Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by PaladinPrecision on Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:31 am

So I am a rifle guy, I know crazy talk on a Bullseye forum. Anyhow, I am thinking about dabbling into bullseye as a jump from USPSA production. 

With rifle loads (long range), I can take one bullet (same weight / type/ make), a given powder and with 10 different charges say 41.0, 41.3, 41.6 gr.... Shoot them over my chronograph and usually be able to choose 2 nodes and load 10 more rounds 5/5 and shoot those for groups. If I have accuracy issues, I play with OAL to dial it in. The result is one of the two will be better and that is my load for that rifle/ barrel/ bullet/ powder. Now that chronographs are more than +/- 1% accurate. Has anyone tried such load development for bullseye?

I have read a decent amount, but before I was concentrating more about learning how to build the guns as atlanta arms and other companies make great ammo to throw in and run with. Is there a threshold that people typically use for sorting brass and bullets? (ie cast bullets). For service rifle I sort brass for example to within +/- 0.5 grain, and bullets to +/- 0.1 for exceptional accuracy. I would guess 1 grain for bullets or is it more like 0.3 grain? I used to load 10 rounds of each powder charge / OAL, but testing hundreds of rounds per bullet/ powder type got old. FYI, I am the guy in USPSA that insists on running an Accushadow in production so I can call my shots and make the distance hits everyone else stresses about, so you could call me a bit of an accuracy nut.

Thoughts?

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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by USSR on Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:08 am

Well, all I can say is, I shot 1,000 yard F Class for 6 years, and found zero correlation between low ES/SD numbers and accuracy, i.e. the loads with the lowest ES/SD numbers were not the most accurate.   Not that I didn't go looking for loads where the ES was less than 20 and the SD less than 5, but accuracy was the load determinate.   IMHO, low ES/SD numbers are even less critical in handgun ammo.

Don
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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by CR10X on Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:15 am

Deleted

Have fun.

CR


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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by Wobbley on Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:11 am

The As a long time rifle shooter and bullseye shooter I can say that in bullseye the targets are generous enough that you won’t loose many points from ammunition.  If you have a properly prepared Bullseye pistol, you won’t lose points from mechanical inaccuracies either.  The biggest variable is YOUR stance, YOUR grip, YOUR sight alignment, and YOUR trigger control.  

Most of us shoot more or less standard loads; 3.5 To 4.2 Bullseye, or similar charges of TiteGroup, 700X, Red Dot, WST and some others all pushing a 185 to 200 grain bullet either jacketed or cast.  These loads are accurate enough for our needs.  While low ES and SD are nice ipwhat counts is group size.  Here’s an example.
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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by robert84010 on Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:23 pm

1
_____________________ = pistol shooting.
          rifle shooting


There is the mathematical formula to success. Those of us here that are Distinguished or especially Master class and higher did not get there because we own a chrony or sort brass. The exact opposite but the good news is you get to spend more time shooting/dry firing and not at the reloading bench.
I went double distinguished without ever once testing my pistol or rifle or ammo or use a chrony or anything but just working on trigger control and sight alignment, for rifle I learned NPA. I bought average equipment and used it to develop better than average trigger control. 
 If you cannot keep ALL YOUR SHOTS INSIDE THE BLACK on all strings of fire with your .22lr you are wasting your time talking about all the stuff you just talked about. I guess that gives either a grim picture or a very bright one about bullseye but it is the bottom line.

 Maybe that is how we should sell bullseye, it is so easy that you don't even have to sort brass!

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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by robert84010 on Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:46 pm


Nothing was sorted or weighed for this group. I haven't even weighed myself in years! 25yards, one handed 10 shots. Marine Corps Marksmanship manual slow fire training step.

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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by Al on Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:41 pm

You've just had 5 responses that, if you pay attention to, will save you a lot of time, effort, components, and frustration in your search for the "best load".

That being said, you may decide you need to reinvent the wheel and go ahead with your own experiments and wind up with the same results summarized above. I know I did. Could have saved myself thousands of rounds of carefully constructed ammo and hours of Ramsom rest testing that would have been far better spent training.

I came from a background of long range Prairie Dog shooting, decades before discovering Bullseye. My targets of choice are roughly the size of a dress shoe and I concentrated on the 600-1000 yard ranges. Very small targets at varied ranges dealing with ND winds. My dogging rifles are built to benchrest specs and loaded with arbor dies. In my experience, it's not as difficult as Bullseye. In long range, it's reading the conditions and dialing in the scope.  In Bullseye, it's standing on your feet & shooting a pistol with one hand. It's the shooter waaay more than the equipment.

Enjoy the ride, ask lots of questions, please heed advice given by proven shooters. They're just trying to teach you to be a better shooter.  We've all traveled the same road, just attempting to save you some time & effort.
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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by S148 on Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:47 pm

The two instances I'm aware of that have looked at the correlation between group size and velocity sd/es in handguns has found no correlation.

https://americanhandgunner.com/exclusive-consistent-velocity-accuracy/

http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t8630-dave-wilson-s-32-sw-long-be-86-data-analysis

I should add that, like rifle rounds, case volume matters, and if you want the most consistent velocities, use the same headstamp brass.

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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by jglenn21 on Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:17 pm

a very wise man once said you could shoot rocks at 25 yards and clean the targets.. pretty close actually

find yourself a good 50 yard load and stick with it.. 

work on the fundamentals
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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by PaladinPrecision on Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:22 pm

USSR wrote:Well, all I can say is, I shot 1,000 yard F Class for 6 years, and found zero correlation between low ES/SD numbers and accuracy, i.e. the loads with the lowest ES/SD numbers were not the most accurate.   Not that I didn't go looking for loads where the ES was less than 20 and the SD less than 5, but accuracy was the load determinate.   IMHO, low ES/SD numbers are even less critical in handgun ammo.

Don
I have found that unless we used an ohler chronograph in the old days, all of my numbers were WRONG for ES/SD / Velocity. Because with the exception of the Ohler that was way too expensive for us normal people to buy. The standard fair was not accurate enough to actually determine super low SD / ES on rifle speed projectiles. My old chrono for example, was accurate to +/-1%. While that sounds good, 1% of my 2700 ft/s velocity node was 27. (2700 x 0.01= 27), So with the uncertainty my old chrono  my shot could be between 2673 - 2727 ft/s. At 2673 ft/s @1000 yards the drop is 362.3 in,  and @ 2727 344.7in. That is 17.6 inches of vertical just based on a velocity shift, On a 42 inch popper that is almost a miss JUST on velocity shift, ignoring lateral shift from wind. Which you would likely miss because the popper is only 12 inches wide at it's widest. I would also follow that up with a statement of, you would be the only long range shooter that I have ever come across to say that. David Tubb, multi national champion seems to think there is a correlation between ES/SD and long range performance... lol.  Sorry for the grey, I copied one number from the calculator and it changed all of this nonsense. 

My current era chronograph can resolve about 0.1%, I may be on the cutting edge of rifle reloading as you probably haven't even heard of the method I use. (Not OCW or Ladder). The improved resolution of my hardware allows me to make better / more informed decisions. I don't shoot for score on a single target, my game is precision rifle, there are no sighters in my game.


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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by willnewton on Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:40 pm

lol! I like this conversation. It is very interesting in theoretical usefulness and practical uselessness.

I was all excited about ammo at one time too.  Then I tested a bunch of ammo.  It turns out NONE OF IT MATTERED because I can’t outshoot the crappiest ammo I can find. Now I don’t care about ammo much anymore.  

Since you don’t have Master/High Master tagged in your profile, I recommend you go stand at a 25yard line and shoot us ten singlehanded shots at BE target.  Post it up and someone will tell you whether to worry about your ammo yet or not! Smile
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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by PaladinPrecision on Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:46 pm

w4ti wrote:
I seem to recall Jerry Keefer had some thoughts on getting your round to properly headspace or something like that which could eek out a little more accuracy that I can't seem to put my paws on at present. I don't remember the upshot exactly, but vague memory indicates to me that it was on point, as he was for many things (he recently passed away).

Lastly, while there is no apparent correspondence between velocity ES/SD and accuracy, it doesn't mean that velocity isn't generally a good indicator of where a proven sort of load may be (I've wondered if PSI has any correspondence to accuracy...). Bullseye shooters tend to shoot slower loads- you may wish to keep your jacketed rounds at the 775 FPS level or so. There is a sticky with a bunch of different loads at the top of the forum- it ought to keep you busy for a bit.

Hope this helps!

Actually Jerry is a big reason why I started down this road in bullseye. I was sad when I heard about that a couple days ago. For the record, I am a Former Marine with 5th award expert in pistol, 6th award expert in rifle in 8 years I was in (last year I didn't qualify since I was broken. So my "dry fire" game is pretty good for all the nay sayers. I also personally agree with Larry Lutengardner  (sp), that your wobble + mechanical accuracy of the gun have a large influence on deciding your scores. After shooting crap ammo for years, and crap guns. I like nice things. In my experience having a platform that you are confident that the bullet went exactly where you think it did helps in shot calling and overall performance. Have I gone distinguished yet? No, but I am also currently a Mechanical Engineering student so I like to define my variables and evaluate things that will reduce accuracy. 

So it is clear, this is just my initial evaluation. For accuracy testing I like to be scientific about my loads. Control variables (bullet weight variation to +/- 05 gr, case weight variation to +/- 05 gr, Case OAL to +/- 0.0005 in, and vary powder charge alone and see the correlation for one powder.) That tells me charge weight sensitivity., I plot the X/Y axis SD/ES, Velocity SD/ES in excel for each 10 shot group. 

What I have learned without firing a shot. Starline brass is very consistent (according to the lot I personally tested, the OAL was within 0.002 in, and the case weights were between 56.1 and 57.1 grains, with the majority falling close to 56.6 gr. Which to me means that I will likely just buy the new brass and shoot it out of the bag unless there is an accuracy issue. (cases have been marked with weight to examine later if I have fliers). 

I think that Jerry was talking about the head space being minimum for match chambers and using brass that is close to the head space(long). I do remember that talk.


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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by PaladinPrecision on Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:00 pm

willnewton wrote: 

Since you don’t have Master/High Master tagged in your profile, I recommend you go stand at a 25yard line and shoot us ten singlehanded shots at BE target.  Post it up and someone will tell you whether to worry about your ammo yet or not! Smile
USMC 5th Award Expert... I don't think there was a time I didn't get 90% or better out of 400 points (first 2 years I didn't qualify with pistol, and last year I didn't). I also am confident that what works for other people might not work for me. I haven't stood and shot a 25 yard bullseye for score recently, but with my ammo testing before I got a ransom rest my groups only shrank by an inch - inch and a half using a ransom rest at 25. But just to spoil your day I will see if I can print out a rite in the rain 25 yard target and use my CZ to make your day less fun. 

For reference, so far this forum seems to have a lot of people willing to throw in their opinions and far fewer that will actually address the nature of the question itself. People used to call me crazy for using a surface grinder to mate parts and talked about using one for slide to frame fit. Then I met Jerry Keefer and laughed because he was JUST like me.

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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by oldsalt444 on Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:25 pm

OK, just basics to your question:
Sorting cases by headstamp - Not really necessary, but I like to do it because I'm anal about that.
Weighing cases - Fahgettaboudit!
Weighing bullets - Fahgettaboudit!
Chronographing - Fahgettaboudit!
A primer is a primer is a primer. The difference is nil, except for magnum primers.
COAL - Not critical to low pressure loads of 38 & 45.  It will help out with 9mm a bit.  Just make sure the load functions reliably.

85% of your accuracy is in the bullet. The rest is in your powder charge. 
I make up my test loads and go up 0.3 gr at a time. I only make 5 rounds of each and shoot them from a rest to find the best grouping load. When I get 1"+/- @ 25 yards, that's my load.
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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by PaladinPrecision on Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:02 pm

oldsalt444 wrote:OK, just basics to your question:
Sorting cases by headstamp - Not really necessary, but I like to do it because I'm anal about that.
Weighing cases - Fahgettaboudit!
Weighing bullets - Fahgettaboudit!
Chronographing - Fahgettaboudit!
A primer is a primer is a primer. The difference is nil, except for magnum primers.
COAL - Not critical to low pressure loads of 38 & 45.  It will help out with 9mm a bit.  Just make sure the load functions reliably.

85% of your accuracy is in the bullet. The rest is in your powder charge. 
I make up my test loads and go up 0.3 gr at a time. I only make 5 rounds of each and shoot them from a rest to find the best grouping load. When I get 1"+/- @ 25 yards, that's my load.
I shoot 9mm for the most part. Your load testing is not unlike mine. For initial loading I like to figure out the lowest M for the velocity slope. Which in rifle usually correlates to the more accurate loads. Except I load 10, of each powder charge. Shoot on the ransom rest, and note accuracy/ point of impact shifts for each load. The load that is pretty accurate, while not having a lot of velocity variation, under 1.5 inches @25 (I like to see 1), in the middle of the range that doesn't shift POI. The 3 best loads get taken to 50, repeat. Best load, 30 rounds 3x10 for accuracy variation... load proven. Make hundreds, case gauge and shoot.

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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by Chris Miceli on Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:12 pm

Competition 9mm should be 1” at 50 yards
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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by willnewton on Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:21 pm

You know, some folks have got their scopes mounted a bit too tight!

  You must must have missed all the smiley faces and laughing animations and tongue in cheek commentary that was going on there. 

Hey, we are just glad you are here!  If ammo-masochism makes you horny for Bullseye, we don’t judge!  But we do like to have fun.

I’m only here because it gives me an excuse to hand checker front straps and spend large sums of money on small pieces of metal, all while aggravating my wife with tales of old barrels I’ve mounted in the past.

Welcome to the forum!
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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by PaladinPrecision on Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:28 pm

willnewton wrote:You know, some folks have got their scopes mounted a bit too tight!

  You must must have missed all the smiley faces and laughing animations and tongue in cheek commentary that was going on there. 

Hey, we are just glad you are here!  If ammo-masochism makes you horny for Bullseye, we don’t judge!  But we do like to have fun.

I’m only here because it gives me an excuse to hand checker front straps and spend large sums of money on small pieces of metal, all while aggravating my wife with tales of old barrels I’ve mounted in the past.

Welcome to the forum!
Your humor came through much better in that one. I honestly just want to put one more skill set in the drawer of my marksmanship tool box.
Chris MiceliCompetition 9mm should be 1” at 50 yards
I don't own one yet, closest thing I have on the shelf is my 2011 or my CZ Accu shadow. The latter is the one I plan on playing around with since it is rather accurate. 1 inch at 50? That is close to the mechanical accuracy of barrels I have seen in fixtures lol. It will be a minute till I have a legit bullseye pistol. My other shooting sports like three gun take up the majority of my budget.

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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by Wobbley on Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:03 pm

I wasn’t being funny or trying to be snarky.  Just that the precision rifle games and the resulting ammunition precision levels are not needed.  I sort brass by make.  However after the 5 th firing it goes into the practice bin.  Any standard primer seems to work Ok.  Powder charge precision isn’t necessary, seating depth control does require attention. For two reasons, functioning and headspace control.  Most SWC bullets seem to shoot better with some shoulder protruding.  Crimp diameter must be consistent and be a decent value.  Your pistol will tell you what it needs.  The above target I posted was a chronograph session of some practice ammo.  3.8 Bullseye, LPP, mixed cases, old 200 gr SWC cast bullets of unknown vintage, .468 taper crimp.  Good enough for the short line.  Yes I chronograph loads, but unless the accuracy is really bad I’m not concerned about ES or SD.  I generally abandon that powder and just find another tree to sit under.
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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by PaladinPrecision on Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:21 am

Wobbley wrote:I wasn’t being funny or trying to be snarky...
Good enough for the short line.  
No worries, I am just trying to gather information before I test it myself. I know with my uspsa ammo I obsess over it more than anyone else I know. However it helps my psycological game, cause I know I can hit whatever gets put in front of me.

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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by Jack H on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:33 am

I think you should stop obsessing, grab a MkII, and go stand on your two legs and see reality.
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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by PaladinPrecision on Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:45 am

And I wondered why bullseye was so popular...

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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by CR10X on Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:30 am

Don't want anyone to get their feathers ruffled, so please remember that the original poster asked...

Thoughts?

Deleted.

Y'all have a nice day!

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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by PaladinPrecision on Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:54 am

I am an engineer... SO I actually care less about my score and more about wrapping my head around the science and narrowing down the variables. Thoughts were requested as a segway to an intelligent conversation about reloading... I am pretty sure I didn't ask what everyone else prefers to do with their reloading time or practicing at the range... While I was still in the Marine Corps I was usually within 10 points of the base record. So I can or could shoot handgun pretty well. However I enjoy sorting out the variables and tinkering. ie I would rather figure out a better way to produce the ammo or the handgun rather than puffing my chest up and putting Distinguished on my signature. Also, if someone is going to "teach me the way", shitting on my method and just telling me to practice or Stand on my legs and see reality, should probably do a couple deployments and do something substantial with themselves before telling me about reality. 

I know Chris, I also disagree with his notion of Seeing just what needs to be seen. Just a thought lol. The entire reason I was even contemplating bullseye wasn't to get a badge, it was to improve my skillset and maintain proficiency... Bonus if I don't have to shoot it with an M9. lol. My comment about bullseyes popularity was because there is a whole lot of Master high master that gets everyones dick hard. If I wanted that kinda feel I would go down to the VFW and whip it out.

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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

Post by CR10X on Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:06 am

Wishing you well on your endeavors.

CR

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Re: Accuracy vs SD/ ES

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