Intensity of position

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Intensity of position

Post by TomH_pa on Wed 6 Dec - 6:12

There is a Youtube video called Sustained fire 101 where Brian Zins says that his gun returns to good firing position not because he forces it back but because of the intensity of the position.

Would anyone care to comment on what makes up an "intense position"? In particular the amount of tension of the firing arm.

Is there a small amount of recoil anticipation ( for lack of a better description) in order to get the gun to return quickly?
Or is that also built into the position?

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Re: Intensity of position

Post by james r chapman on Wed 6 Dec - 6:22

I think his forearm is like a leaf spring of a 59 Ford....
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Re: Intensity of position

Post by CR10X on Wed 6 Dec - 6:36

For me, no recoil anticipation or extra tension at all.  Too much tension tends to slow me down getting back to position.  

I think "intensity of position" in this case is more like having a memory or feeling of the muscle conditions and body position for that position and letting yourself get back into that position as smoothly as possible. (At least for me.)  Think of it a "where you want to be" and you just moved away from that position for a second.  "Intensity" would be awareness of the desired position - body, arm, grip, gun, etc., and just letting everything get back to that desired (hopefully natural) position.

For me, it's almost like I just kinda naturally move back to the firing position as the trigger is beginning the next shot.  Forcing it can result in over correction or missing the natural point which results in even more time used to "dress it up". 

Then again, it could mean something else......

CR


Last edited by CR10X on Wed 6 Dec - 11:23; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Because I think even slower than I type.)

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Re: Intensity of position

Post by w4ti on Wed 6 Dec - 6:55

CR10X wrote:For me, no recoil anticipation or extra tension at all.  Too much tension tends to slow me down getting back to position.  

I think "intensity of position" in this case is more like having a muscle memory of that position and letting yourself get back into that position as smoothly as possible. (At least for me.)  Think of it a "where you want to be" and you just moved away from that position for a second.  "Intensity" would be awareness of the desired position - body, arm, grip, gun, etc., and just letting everything get back to that desired (hopefully natural) position.

For me, it's almost like I just kinda naturally move back to the firing position as the trigger is beginning the next shot.  Forcing it can result in over correction or missing the natural point which results in even more time used to "dress it up". 

Then again, it could mean something else......

CR

I've never liked the description of what is supposed to occur here as muscle memory- muscle has no memory, only the brain does. I think body awareness is key, but only functions well when on auto-pilot. The trouble is, how to get from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence; I honestly think to train where you can truly be aware of specific elements of how shooting affects your body, you have to have lots of experience in that particular shooting style while paying close attention to a single element in a practice session to help develop "a feel." The senses can overwhelm the mind with too much data when you are actively trying to collect it, even when you aren't sure of what you are going to do with it.

You should be relaxed, lock your wrist, aim and squeeze very carefully- while trying to do everything in your power to be as unconcerned and calm as possible. 

It's a hell of a sport.

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Re: Intensity of position

Post by Wobbley on Wed 6 Dec - 7:04

“Muscle memory” is akin to the typist reading a word then the fingers punching the keys in the correct sequence without really thinking.  It takes a lot of time on the range to get there, in our case.  More time than most can afford if we want to do this as a hobby.  So when Zins fires a shot his subconscious takes over and gets the arm back to where it was.  Since he’s not thinking about it he’s attributing it to “muscle memory”.  But it’s really his subconscious mind telling his muscles to move.

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Re: Intensity of position

Post by TomH_pa on Wed 6 Dec - 7:47

CR10X wrote:

For me, it's almost like I just kinda naturally move back to the firing position as the trigger is beginning the next shot.  Forcing it can result in over correction or missing the natural point which results in even more time used to "dress it up". 

Then again, it could mean something else......

CR
 You just described my sustained fire

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Re: Intensity of position

Post by 12XNPC on Wed 6 Dec - 8:01

For me it's what I said in the video.

It is intensity of the position. It is also NOT MUSCLE.MEMORY. I hate the term muscle memory anyone that knows me has probably heard me say "muscle don't remember s$#@, they do not have the ability to remember.

Muscle go where they are told by the brain, conscious or subconscious.

When you are driving and come to a stop sign do you consciously think "take foot off gas and press on brake?". NO.

Hence the new term. Cognitive Muscular Conditioning.

Wanna get there. DRY FIRE. MASTER YOUR GRIP, MASTER YOUR TRIGGER CONTROL.

Stop over thinking it.

I'm NOT smart enough to shoot bad.
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Re: Intensity of position

Post by jmdavis on Wed 6 Dec - 9:06

You are plenty smart. And you sure seem to think about the right things when it comes to shooting. I don't know what the Marine training methods have to do with that. But good shooters who learned to shoot as Marines seem to have ways of doing things and thinking that lead to success. 

Zins, Sanderson, Franks, and Shue, I think that all four shot on the USMC pistol team at one time. That's four of the last 5 National Champions.
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Re: Intensity of position

Post by TomH_pa on Wed 6 Dec - 10:04

As far as over thinking.....guilty

So from recoil you just let the gun "fall" back in place?

What I think I see in recoil compared to what I see from your guys that are proficient at this it almost seems there is a certain amount of a catch to stop the upward travel.... maybe mine isn't as much as I think.

Thanks for all the replies.

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Re: Intensity of position

Post by Aprilian on Wed 6 Dec - 10:37

Imagine you are pointing your finger intently at some object when someone comes by and bumps your arm.  By your focusing intently on what you are pointing at, your arm returns to the same "point".

recoil = stranger bump
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Re: Intensity of position

Post by TomH_pa on Wed 6 Dec - 10:44

Good description, thanks.

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Re: Intensity of position

Post by CR10X on Wed 6 Dec - 11:32

Arrrrgh, the two words I did not want to put together were "muscle" and "memory".  I have corrected with post with what my brain intended to say but my fingers could not properly put together.

I think "intensity of position" in this case is more like having a memory or feeling of the muscle conditions and body position for that position and letting yourself get back into that position as smoothly as possible. (At least for me.) 


IF the body gets moving back to were it used to be by returning to the same spacial orientation, the less we have to consciously control the process.  Think of it as a gymnast "sticking" a landing. 

As the man said, you really shouldn't have to over think it.  But I do describe it as "learning it" and "feeling it". 

CR

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Re: Intensity of position

Post by willnewton on Wed 6 Dec - 11:47

Cecil, that is a good example. 

Maybe it is more like watching a video of a gymnast sticking a "10", reversing the tape a half second and looping the cycle over and over again.

This example might apply to Zins' effort to cut through over-thinking during training as well. 

Don't shoot 270 different Xs.

Just loop the tape and shoot the same X 270 times.
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Re: Intensity of position

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed 6 Dec - 12:12

CR10X nailed it; "learning it and feeling it".

Everyfundamental in BE is all about being "consistent". If you are consistent you can use a loose grip and shoot 10's. Or a firm grip. If you are consistent you can shoot with a relaxed body; the old school lean back and stick your gut out. Or you can use a tighter body tension......
Shooting 10's is about consistency. The pistol is going to recoil. It's also going to go forward as it goes back into battery. I was never taught to fight/control the recoil. I was taught through repetition that the pistol will feel a certain way when it recoils and it will go back on target with minimal effort. So no extra effort involved. A good stance and good grip will accomodate the recoil and the pistol will find its way back on target. I believe the shooters that fight it over compensate and do more harm than good. Most HM shoot their best groups during rapid fire because they know to just keep the trigger moving and let the shots break. For some reason the red dot just keeps going back in the middle of the target. Like Brian said....don't over think it. Learn to shoot 5 good shots; no time limit. Pay attention individually to the trigger moving, the recoil and the recovery. They all 3 have feel. Just replicate it.
Jon
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Re: Intensity of position

Post by dronning on Wed 6 Dec - 12:28

Jon Eulette wrote:CR10X nailed it; "learning it and feeling it".

.... Most HM shoot their best groups during rapid fire because they know to just keep the trigger moving and let the shots break.....
Jon
My best clean 100-8X I don't remember seeing the dot come back to the target, it just felt right when the shots broke.

My mantra is NO stink'n think'n or the musical version just "Let it be".
- Dave
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Re: Intensity of position

Post by LenV on Wed 6 Dec - 16:41

Too intense? Laughing

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Re: Intensity of position

Post by 12XNPC on Wed 6 Dec - 17:13

Getting close.......
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Re: Intensity of position

Post by TomH_pa on Wed 6 Dec - 20:44

I can see I've been applying intensity to the wrong places Thanks again guys!

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Re: Intensity of position

Post by Keyholed on Wed 6 Dec - 23:40

I don't have the slightest idea how the damn thing gets back there.

I do know precisely how it shouldn't happen. I RSO'd an older gentleman--I'm guessing old enough for Korea--who was shooting for the first time in years. He had an old mil-spec 1911. He had a strange two-handed weaver stance, both arms bent, weak-hand teacupped under the butt, so that the gun was practically on his ample chest. It was like a parody of tacticool shooting.

Every time he fired, the gun would tip upwards...and then stop, like a Ransom rest. Then he would slowly bring the pistol back down, aim, and fire again. He missed the target more often than not, he missed every time requirement on the course of fire, and as such, did not pass.

I like for people to pass, so I softballed in a "Have you ever tried an iscosceles stance?" as he grumbled about how hard the test was (it's not).

He cursed at me and finished up with, "This's the way the Corps taught me to shoot fifty years ago!"

I somehow doubted his recollection, but I figured he'd have no problem hitting me at 2 yards with at least a couple shots, so I shrugged and he failed again.

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Re: Intensity of position

Post by Magload on Thu 7 Dec - 10:05

Keyholed wrote:I don't have the slightest idea how the damn thing gets back there.

I do know precisely how it shouldn't happen. I RSO'd an older gentleman--I'm guessing old enough for Korea--who was shooting for the first time in years. He had an old mil-spec 1911. He had a strange two-handed weaver stance, both arms bent, weak-hand teacupped under the butt, so that the gun was practically on his ample chest. It was like a parody of tacticool shooting.

Every time he fired, the gun would tip upwards...and then stop, like a Ransom rest. Then he would slowly bring the pistol back down, aim, and fire again. He missed the target more often than not, he missed every time requirement on the course of fire, and as such, did not pass.

I like for people to pass, so I softballed in a "Have you ever tried an iscosceles stance?" as he grumbled about how hard the test was (it's not).

He cursed at me and finished up with, "This's the way the Corps taught me to shoot fifty years ago!"

I somehow doubted his recollection, but I figured he'd have no problem hitting me at 2 yards with at least a couple shots, so I shrugged and he failed again.
When my best friend and I each started carrying we both bought M&P Shield 40s and I took him as a guest to my indoor range I shoot at.  He used that very same stance and grip.  I told him that grip was no longer recommend and he told me that he was a RSO in the Navy and that is how they shot.  So I showed him the pics of a out of battery firing i had that blew the base plate off the mag and gave me pizza face.  He then changed his grip as I instructed him and even started hitting the target backing cardboard at 5 yards.  They didn't teach us much on shooting guns in the Navy but he was a good Skeet shooter on a Navy team and missed going to the Olympics  by missing one bird in a tie shoot off.  Don
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Re: Intensity of position

Post by Slartybartfast on Thu 7 Dec - 11:30

As much as people might want to complain, muscle memory is a widely recognised term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory
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Re: Intensity of position

Post by dronning on Thu 7 Dec - 13:30

Slartybartfast wrote:As much as people might want to complain, muscle memory is a widely recognised term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory
True the term is used frequently but even when you read the explanation it is the subconscious that controls it, which is learned through repetition.  Lanny Basham (With Winning in Mind) was the first to come up with a way to more quickly train AND utilize the subconscious, by the conscious development of a "shot process".  Done right (consistently) your shot process will "trigger" your subconscious to take over. 
- Dave

I'd like to add if you are successful at training your subconscious before your develop solid fundamentals you will have to "unlearn" what you have programmed into your subconscious.
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Re: Intensity of position

Post by john bickar on Thu 7 Dec - 20:40

Slartybartfast wrote:As much as people might want to complain, muscle memory is a widely recognised term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory

You're not wrong, but when a 2679 shooter who has 12 more Camp Perry titles than I have says that "muscles don't remember shit", I pause and think about how I can translate that concept to improve my own shooting rather than looking up "muscle memory" on Wikipedia.
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Re: Intensity of position

Post by tceva on Fri 8 Dec - 2:46

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Re: Intensity of position

Post by Slartybartfast on Fri 8 Dec - 7:19

john bickar wrote:
Slartybartfast wrote:As much as people might want to complain, muscle memory is a widely recognised term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory

You're not wrong, but when a 2679 shooter who has 12 more Camp Perry titles than I have says that "muscles don't remember shit", I pause and think about how I can translate that concept to improve my own shooting rather than looking up "muscle memory" on Wikipedia.
But when you get all uiptight and worked up enough to say "muscles don't remember shit" when the phrase and concept has nothing to do with muscles remembering anything and is EXACTLY what said shooter then explained, maybe you should check the attitude and focus on less pedantic issues.
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Re: Intensity of position

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