Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

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Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Amanda4461 on Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:40 pm

I tried out my first 1911 with a Roll Trigger a few days ago at the local range. I loved it. Does anyone offer a drop-in fit Roll Trigger kit, or is this something I am better off sending to an experienced 1911 gunsmith?
Thanks for the info, and Merry Christmas!

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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Jon Eulette on Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:43 pm

That depends on the amount of roll. KC sells a drop in with in my opinion a long roll. If you desire less roll it will need a gunsmith to fit it.
Jon
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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Doug Tiedt on Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:50 pm

Just a quick reply, others that have more knowledge than me will likely reply after the holidays.

KC Crawford (on this list) does offer a kit for you to install yourself.  Others on this list have done so; although I believe it
requires a bit of fitting... it probably is not quite "drop in"?

If you decide to have a gunsmith do this for you, you'll want to go to a gunsmith that understands bullseye shooting.  Your
everyday 1911 gunsmith doesn't understand "roll trigger", its not what they are being asked to work on.

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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Chris Miceli on Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:51 pm

Doug Tiedt wrote:Just a quick reply, others that have more knowledge than me will likely reply after the holidays.

KC Crawford (on this list) does offer a kit for you to install yourself.  Others on this list have done so; although I believe it
requires a bit of fitting... it probably is not quite "drop in"?

If you decide to have a gunsmith do this for you, you'll want to go to a gunsmith that understands bullseye shooting.  Your
everyday 1911 gunsmith doesn't understand "roll trigger", its not what they are being asked to work on.

all of mine were drop in, It comes with an instruction sheet for safety things to check for after install... if they don't pass you have some fitting to do.
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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by SW-52 on Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:03 pm

Short roll,medium roll or long roll...what's best for a shooter never use a Roll Trigger?
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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Chris Miceli on Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:09 pm

SW-52 wrote:Short roll,medium roll or long roll...what's best for a shooter never use a Roll Trigger?
can always shorten a long.
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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Sc0 on Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:31 pm

Have 3 triggers from KC, two were shortened by a known Smith and feel better with the shorter roll vs longer roll.

Going from a conventional trigger to a roll trigger is an improvement, a set up roll trigger is an improvement over the drop in unit. Each is also subjective to the shooter and his/her shot process.

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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Froneck on Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:32 pm

Problem with roll trigger drop-ins is that they may not work. On some guns they work great while others the results are not good. Reason is that the holes in the frames are not all the same. Most are similar but from time to time the sear and hammer holes are not near as they should be. Another issue is most gunsmiths don't understand roll triggers. I have tried for years to find a smith at Perry that could do what I wanted. All claimed they could but what I got back was terrible. First few times I was stuck in my Hut trying to get the trigger to back where I had it! I soon learned to remove my hammer, sear, disconnector and spring then replace it with something I purchased on Commercial Row so that when I got back something I didn't want I simply changed it with what I just removed. Only successful smith was Jimmy Clark, he understood exactly what I wanted and did it! So if looking for a smith get one that completely understands bullseye shooting as Jimmy Clark did.
 I don't know what to call it, I love to feel the trigger move as I apply pressure but not so much as to have to rush the pull or run out of time in Rapid Fire. Kinda different from Crisp in that I'm squeezing the trigger waiting for something to happen and when it don't jerk the trigger cause I know time is running out, not easy to "Keep the trigger Moving" with Crisp. Eventually I learned to do my own triggers and did them for Adam. I have a full machine shop so I built my own jigs, each gun has it's owns specially built jig so I don't have to change anything. I also found that Friends that purchased commercial jigs had problems with them, checking them I found they were not square and some after fixing squareness I found would not repeat when the setting was changed then returned. I don't know how Clark did my trigger but he did it as I requested with what he had at Perry so I'm assuming that a good smith knows what to do without special jigs.

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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by farmboy on Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:21 pm

I have installed 3 of KC’s in 3 separate/different guns. All 3 were easy drop in. No modifications required
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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Froneck on Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:52 pm

I didn't say KC's trigger will not work, they are a good quality hammer and sear and cut with a special angle. I was saying that depending on what "roll" is desired you might not get what you wanted. If it were me I would send the gun to KC, describe what is desired and let him fit the hammer and sear to the "roll" desired. Over the years I have talked to quite a few shooters from the best down to beginners. Those that like the roll trigger describe the "roll" in many different ways. Like saying a color for example Gray, I can find quite a few different Gray paints.

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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by kc.crawford.7 on Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:45 am

Amanda4461 wrote:I tried out my first 1911 with a Roll Trigger a few days ago at the local range. I loved it. Does anyone offer a drop-in fit Roll Trigger kit, or is this something I am better off sending to an experienced 1911 gunsmith?
Thanks for the info, and Merry Christmas!

Here is a link to my web store.  If you have any questions please feel free to give me a call.

https://kcskustomcreations.com/shop/
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http://www.kcskustomcreations.com

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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Chris Miceli on Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:01 am

Froneck wrote:I didn't say KC's trigger will not work, they are a good quality hammer and sear and cut with a special angle. I was saying that depending on what "roll" is desired you might not get what you wanted. If it were me I would send the gun to KC, describe what is desired and let him fit the hammer and sear to the "roll" desired. Over the years I have talked to quite a few shooters from the best down to beginners. Those that like the roll trigger describe the "roll" in many different ways. Like saying a color for example Gray, I can find quite a few different Gray paints.
+1
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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by daflorc on Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:13 pm

I've got 3 of KC's triggers in 3 of my guns, and have had two more in other guns that I've sold off. With his kit, some some guns have a short roll, some a long roll, some in the middle, and one that started out stiff and then got lighter. He sells one kit, and it feels different in every gun you put it in - has to do with the exact hole placement that holds the sear/hammer hook I believe.

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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Keyholed on Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:58 am

Froneck's advice is spot-on. It depends on the frame being used. Installing KC's kit on my Caspian/Foster was as drop-in as drop-in could get. All I had to do was fit and smooth the pins I'd purchased--but they wouldn't even fit the frame to begin with, and it was hardly the most difficult fitting job of the whole build. If you're using an Armscor frame, with a somewhat "casual" approach to dimensions and hole location, that may not be the case. But on such a frame, no trigger work is going to be easy, or in some instances, possible.

Talk to KC. I'm quite happy with mine.

PS--Appreciate the Christmas card, KC. Hope you had a Merry Christmas, and wishing you the best in 2018!

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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by dronning on Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:45 am

I have 5 of KC's roll triggers, 3 kits and 2 in guns he has built for me.  The kits dropped in without mods on 2 of 3 guns, the 3rd was a simple fitting job.  The kits were medium to long rolls and were great and I had no complaints.  The 2 triggers KC installed in the guns he built for me were several steps better.

Eventually I did have KC shorten the roll for me, you will find the length of roll is a personal preference.
- Dave
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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Magload on Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:53 am

I have installed 3 of KC's triggers the last one being on a new Rock Island 38 Super which I expected might not fit but it dropped right in.  KC will be putting one in the RO 38 Super he is building me and I am looking forward to comparing it to the 3 I did.

Yes I appreciated the Christmas card from him also.  Best card I got this year I am stilling drooling over the pistol on it.  Don
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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Froneck on Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:17 pm

As deflorc described is what the issue with drop-ins are. The KC drop-in is better than all of the others and dimensions are on size. The problem is in the frame that is production made. A lot of hoopla has been made about CNC machinery but they add nothing to quality. They are not more accurate though far better than the old worn out machinery that were making the frames for decades.
 To compound sear and hammer hole location differences is parallelism. If the 2 holes are not parallel it will change the feel. Also to add to the problem is hole and pin size. If while looking at the sear and hammer pins with the grips removed and pulling the trigger you can see the pins move, that's not good. Simply installing a drop-in will not change the issues created by the above mentioned errors. Unless someone is familiar with and has the knowledge you would be better off contacting KC or Jon to have triggers worked on.

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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Tim:H11 on Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:03 pm

Froneck wrote:As deflorc described is what the issue with drop-ins are. The KC drop-in is better than all of the others and dimensions are on size. The problem is in the frame that is production made. A lot of hoopla has been made about CNC machinery but they add nothing to quality. They are not more accurate though far better than the old worn out machinery that were making the frames for decades.
 To compound sear and hammer hole location differences is parallelism. If the 2 holes are not parallel it will change the feel. Also to add to the problem is hole and pin size. If while looking at the sear and hammer pins with the grips removed and pulling the trigger you can see the pins move, that's not good. Simply installing a drop-in will not change the issues created by the above mentioned errors. Unless someone is familiar with and has the knowledge you would be better off contacting KC or Jon to have triggers worked on.

Are there oversized sear and hammer pivot pins available from any manufacturers that we could buy and fit?
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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:38 pm

Oversized pins are not the answer. They do not help with misaligned holes. Pistolsmiths have to compensate but not by using pins. Jigs are key to fixing frames with errors. Experience is what corrects it. Frame with misaligned holes can have just as good of a trigger job as one that has perfectly parallel pin holes. 
Jon
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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by john bickar on Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:48 pm

Can someone make a jig to fix my misaligned headspace? That costs me a lot of points.
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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Tim:H11 on Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:50 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Oversized pins are not the answer. They do not help with misaligned holes. Pistolsmiths have to compensate but not by using pins. Jigs are key to fixing frames with errors. Experience is what corrects it. Frame with misaligned holes can have just as good of a trigger job as one that has perfectly parallel pin holes. 
Jon

What if the pin holes are lined up good bit a better fit for pin to frame and pin to part (hammer or sear) is desired?
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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:49 pm

Wasting your time and can actually cause more problems than it can help.
Jon
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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by robert84010 on Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:42 pm

john bickar wrote:Can someone make a jig to fix my misaligned headspace? That costs me a lot of points.
John,
no jigs needed haven't you heard, you measure your brass and make a spreadsheet. That is the "new" headspace. Evidently, AMU is now the Army Math Unit. It's all about being confident in the fact that when one shoots a 5 it is EXACTLY in the 5 ring where it should be based on brass measurements. That is what matters now...silly.

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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Tim:H11 on Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:15 pm

robert84010 wrote:
john bickar wrote:Can someone make a jig to fix my misaligned headspace? That costs me a lot of points.
John,
no jigs needed haven't you heard, you measure your brass and make a spreadsheet. That is the "new" headspace. Evidently, AMU is now the Army Math Unit. It's all about being confident in the fact that when one shoots a 5 it is EXACTLY in the 5 ring where it should be based on brass measurements. That is what matters now...silly.

That sounds odd.... I shot a 96 the other day, one 8, two 9’s at 50 and it was all mixed brass. Different lengths, different head stamps. And cast bullets from mix wheel weights and scrap lead. No consistency and method to the alloy. I think the 45 ACP cartridge is more forgiving than some give it credit for.
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Re: Roll Trigger-Drop-in fit or need a good 1911 Smith?

Post by Wobbley on Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:24 pm

robert84010 wrote:
john bickar wrote:Can someone make a jig to fix my misaligned headspace? That costs me a lot of points.
John,
no jigs needed haven't you heard, you measure your brass and make a spreadsheet. That is the "new" headspace. Evidently, AMU is now the Army Math Unit. It's all about being confident in the fact that when one shoots a 5 it is EXACTLY in the 5 ring where it should be based on brass measurements. That is what matters now...silly.

I think John was being facetious. His misaligned headspace is on top of his shoulders. The only correction for that is a slap up side of the head.

lol!
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