Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

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Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by wizzer on 12/26/2017, 8:47 am

First topic message reminder :

I will be purchasing several custom expanders.  Assuming .452" lead bullets and new brass, should we be using a .450 or .451 diameter expander?  Maybe .452 on work hardened brass?

Edit--not talking flaring of case mouth, EXPANDER for inside case diameter.


Last edited by wizzer on 12/26/2017, 9:41 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by Sc0 on 1/13/2018, 10:16 am

Has anyone Mic'd the Uniquetek expander?

If not maybe i can sweet talk someone with a lathe to make these for the Dillon
Dillon .38 (.360 x.420 length)
Dillon .45 (.4565 x .430 length)

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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by bmize1 on 1/13/2018, 12:19 pm

I just bought Lyman M expanders for 9mm and 45.
45 measures .449 and steps up to .452
9 measure 352 and steps up to 358
They have turn lines from cutter and are not slick or polished at all.

Think I'll take Dillon expanders to machine shop and re-profile them

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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by Wobbley on 1/13/2018, 1:43 pm

Super smooth finish may or may not prove to be beneficial. If the finish is too smooth it might actually grip the brass that much harder.
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by bmize1 on 1/13/2018, 4:48 pm

The Dillon is mirror polished and sticks if you don’t have it lubed or have carbon from firing still in there.
I bet this would stick worse as rough as it is, just my thinking anyway

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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by mikemyers on 5/2/2018, 10:57 am

Until an hour ago, I didn't know any of this.  I have a standard RCBS die, belling the case.

You guys are saying the bullet should push into the case for much of it's length using nothing more than hand pressure.  The smaller case diameter at the end of the expanded length will grip the bullet harder as you push it in with the press.  So I need a die that EXPANDS the case for a certain distance, and ALSO bells the case.

I have an RCBS Pro 2000 press, and I'm shooting Magnus #801 bullets.  Where should I order the appropriate die, and what is the die number?   Is there a specific name for this type of die?
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by Chris Miceli on 5/2/2018, 11:04 am

mikemyers wrote:Until an hour ago, I didn't know any of this.  I have a standard RCBS die, belling the case.

You guys are saying the bullet should push into the case for much of it's length using nothing more than hand pressure.  The smaller case diameter at the end of the expanded length will grip the bullet harder as you push it in with the press.  So I need a die that EXPANDS the case for a certain distance, and ALSO bells the case.

I have an RCBS Pro 2000 press, and I'm shooting Magnus #801 bullets.  Where should I order the appropriate die, and what is the die number?   Is there a specific name for this type of die?


If your concern is lead bullet accuracy this is good advise. 





some excellent advise from Jerry that applies to the 45 as well.

"one of the secrets to lead, is to form the brass to accept 90% of the bullet with only mild finger pressure.. The long 38 Hollow base wad cutters are approx. .580 long..Here I am loading PENN double end solids, which are approx .525 All but about .050 should slide into the case with ease.. No force..to prevent sizing the bullet down below bore diameter. The only dies I ever saw designed specifically for the long 38 wad cutters were the now extinct CH Auto Champ. This Dillion punch is custom ground.." Jerry Keefer

"pull several of your loaded rounds and mic them.. Usually, they will be small, even on the 45.." Jerry Keefer


"Remember, have the punch ground so there is enough adjustment to control the depth..Stop the forming so about .025/.030 of the bullet cannot be pushed in by hand.. This will prevent unwanted movement or set back during seating and or recoil.." Jerry Keefer
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by mikemyers on 5/2/2018, 11:05 am

Interesting YouTube video about this:

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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by Chris Miceli on 5/2/2018, 11:18 am

mikemyers wrote:Interesting YouTube video about this:


i wouldn't consider this video really, he touches on "expansion" but he really focuses on the belling of the case mouth. 

you need to expand large enough and deep enough and some belling so starting bullets is even easier
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by james r chapman on 5/2/2018, 11:25 am

And, it Should only apply to lead bullets. Jacketed need the full compression of the case wall.
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by mikemyers on 5/2/2018, 11:34 am

Chris, yeah, I should have watched the whole video before posting the link.  It's not what I expected him to talk about - he left off what you've told us about.

I called Redding, and spoke to "Roberta" (Phone (607) 753-3331).  She understood perfectly, and she tells me that Redding makes the die you have described, and even has it in 38 Special!

Part numbers are:
45 --                  96189
38 Special ----    96184

For the whole list, and technical description:
http://www.redding-reloading.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&Itemid=15&id=208%3Apremium-die-sets-for-handgun-cartridges

[size=36]Premium Die Sets for Handgun Cartridges[/size]
Designed for Utility, Precision, and High Production

The Premium Die Set for Handgun Cartridges consists of a three (3) die set which contains thefollowing; our Titanium Carbide Sizing Die, a unique Special Expander Die and a Premium Seating Die with our (Std) Bullet Seating Micrometer.

All dies have a large entry taper/radius for easy case entry and high production. The unique design of the special expander performs four distinct functions. The smooth entry radius is followed by the correct expanding diameter for proper press fit of the bullets. The upper section of the expanding diameter has a concentric ring which opens the case mouth slightly larger than bullet diameter to enhance bullet alignment. The final taper can provide a “bellmouth” on the case mouth when desired, usually when using lead bullets.
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by Chris Miceli on 5/2/2018, 11:49 am

mikemyers wrote:Chris, yeah, I should have watched the whole video before posting the link.  It's not what I expected him to talk about - he left off what you've told us about.

I called Redding, and spoke to "Roberta" (Phone (607) 753-3331).  She understood perfectly, and she tells me that Redding makes the die you have described, and even has it in 38 Special!

Part numbers are:
45 --                  96189
38 Special ----    96184

For the whole list, and technical description:
http://www.redding-reloading.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&Itemid=15&id=208%3Apremium-die-sets-for-handgun-cartridges

[size=36]Premium Die Sets for Handgun Cartridges[/size]
Designed for Utility, Precision, and High Production

The Premium Die Set for Handgun Cartridges consists of a three (3) die set which contains thefollowing; our Titanium Carbide Sizing Die, a unique Special Expander Die and a Premium Seating Die with our (Std) Bullet Seating Micrometer.

All dies have a large entry taper/radius for easy case entry and high production. The unique design of the special expander performs four distinct functions. The smooth entry radius is followed by the correct expanding diameter for proper press fit of the bullets. The upper section of the expanding diameter has a concentric ring which opens the case mouth slightly larger than bullet diameter to enhance bullet alignment. The final taper can provide a “bellmouth” on the case mouth when desired, usually when using lead bullets.
i've had those dies.. they don't expand enough for a .452 lead bullet or a correct depth. the custom NOE are your best best. Or a custom one from Steve for the dillon. I call bruce for my star ones
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by ruger15151 on 5/2/2018, 1:37 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:some excellent advise from Jerry that applies to the 45 as well.

"one of the secrets to lead, is to form the brass to accept 90% of the bullet with only mild finger pressure.. The long 38 Hollow base wad cutters are approx. .580 long..Here I am loading PENN double end solids, which are approx .525 All but about .050 should slide into the case with ease.. No force..to prevent sizing the bullet down below bore diameter. The only dies I ever saw designed specifically for the long 38 wad cutters were the now extinct CH Auto Champ. This Dillion punch is custom ground.." Jerry Keefer

"pull several of your loaded rounds and mic them.. Usually, they will be small, even on the 45.." Jerry Keefer


"Remember, have the punch ground so there is enough adjustment to control the depth..Stop the forming so about .025/.030 of the bullet cannot be pushed in by hand.. This will prevent unwanted movement or set back during seating and or recoil.." Jerry Keefer
Chris

Thanks for posting this. Great information that I missed when I read through this thread the first time.

Do you have the link to where I can read more of Jerry's gems?

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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by ruger15151 on 5/2/2018, 1:53 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
mikemyers wrote:Chris, yeah, I should have watched the whole video before posting the link.  It's not what I expected him to talk about - he left off what you've told us about.

I called Redding, and spoke to "Roberta" (Phone (607) 753-3331).  She understood perfectly, and she tells me that Redding makes the die you have described, and even has it in 38 Special!

Part numbers are:
45 --                  96189
38 Special ----    96184

For the whole list, and technical description:
http://www.redding-reloading.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&Itemid=15&id=208%3Apremium-die-sets-for-handgun-cartridges

[size=36]Premium Die Sets for Handgun Cartridges[/size]
Designed for Utility, Precision, and High Production

The Premium Die Set for Handgun Cartridges consists of a three (3) die set which contains thefollowing; our Titanium Carbide Sizing Die, a unique Special Expander Die and a Premium Seating Die with our (Std) Bullet Seating Micrometer.

All dies have a large entry taper/radius for easy case entry and high production. The unique design of the special expander performs four distinct functions. The smooth entry radius is followed by the correct expanding diameter for proper press fit of the bullets. The upper section of the expanding diameter has a concentric ring which opens the case mouth slightly larger than bullet diameter to enhance bullet alignment. The final taper can provide a “bellmouth” on the case mouth when desired, usually when using lead bullets.
i've had those dies.. they don't expand enough for a .452 lead bullet or a correct depth. the custom NOE are your best best. Or a custom one from Steve for the dillon. I call bruce for my star ones
I am currently loading with the Redding Dies and they expand the step large enough for my Magnus #802s 200 gr swc to drop in 2/3 or the way to the lube ring. However, based on what you posted from Jerry's page, you are correct and they do not expand the case deep enough to push the bullet in 90% by hand.

I am going to order a longer seating plug from NOE and see how that changes my accuracy.

Thanks again for the very informative post.

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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by mikemyers on 5/2/2018, 2:25 pm

ruger15151 wrote:....I am going to order a longer seating plug from NOE and see how that changes my accuracy.....
I think it would be fascinating if someone with the ability to do so, could load three rounds using the Magnus 801 bullet, and test the accuracy three ways:
a) no special die
b) the Redding die, and
c) the NOE

My questions at this point are first, what kind of difference does it make to use either special die, compared to the standard way of doing this, with an ordinary expander die, and second, how much of a difference there is between the NOE and the Redding.

For someone like me, who is just getting involved in this, I like the simplicity of simply calling Midway and a few weeks later THE die will arrive.

I assume this is the right section to order from NOE:
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=89
To say I'm "lost" would be an understatement.

If I could get 95% of the benefit from going with the off-the-shelf Redding, and 100% from NOE, I would probably select Redding.

Chris, since right now I'm not doing any of this expanding, wouldn't the Redding be better than what I'm doing now?  In what way might it not be as good as finding one from NOE?   (It's 3pm in Miami, and I'm beginning to understand these things.  One day earlier I was oblivious to this discussion - I thought expander dies just provided the belling.  For an ordinary person, not someone with your ability, how much of a difference does this make?)
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by Chris Miceli on 5/2/2018, 2:34 pm

mikemyers wrote:
ruger15151 wrote:....I am going to order a longer seating plug from NOE and see how that changes my accuracy.....
I think it would be fascinating if someone with the ability to do so, could load three rounds using the Magnus 801 bullet, and test the accuracy three ways:
a) no special die
b) the Redding die, and
c) the NOE

My questions at this point are first, what kind of difference does it make to use either special die, compared to the standard way of doing this, with an ordinary expander die, and second, how much of a difference there is between the NOE and the Redding.

For someone like me, who is just getting involved in this, I like the simplicity of simply calling Midway and a few weeks later THE die will arrive.

I assume this is the right section to order from NOE:
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=89



To say I'm "lost" would be an understatement.

If I could get 95% of the benefit from going with the off-the-shelf Redding, and 100% from NOE, I would probably select Redding.

Chris, since right now I'm not doing any of this expanding, wouldn't the Redding be better than what I'm doing now?  In what way might it not be as good as finding one from NOE?   (It's 3pm in Miami, and I'm beginning to understand these things.  One day earlier I was oblivious to this discussion - I thought expander dies just provided the belling.  For an ordinary person, not someone with your ability, how much of a difference does this make?)

Jerry had I’m guessing hundreds of hours testing lead 38 bullets. What he and the other gentleman I can’t remember his name learned was a case that isn’t optimally expanded swaged soft lead. Which messes up accuracy.  Load a round and after you seat the bullet do not crimp it and pull the bullet out and measure it it should not be smaller or disformed in anyways from a new lead bullet

You forget that the products satisfy 99% of the masses. We are that last 1% well some of us are

I ran some ammo through my press and forgot to change my expander . I tested my gun and it never shot worse then 2” with my normal lead loads. It opened it up close to 7”. I was using swaged lead bullets

Also some people use reamers specifically for lead and certain bullet types. I can’t comment on that stuff


Last edited by Chris Miceli on 5/2/2018, 2:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by mikemyers on 5/2/2018, 2:42 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
Jerry had I’m guessing hundreds of hours testing lead 38 bullets. What he and the other gentleman I can’t remember his name learned was a case that isn’t optimally expanded swaged soft lead. Which messes up accuracy.  Load a round and after you seat the bullet do not crimp it and pull the bullet out and measure it it should not be smaller or disformed in anyways from a new lead bullet

You forget that the products satisfy 99% of the masses. We are that last 1% well some of us are
One thing I can do, is take apart one of the dummy rounds I just loaded, and measure the diameter of the removed bullet, compared to a new bullet.  I will do that today.

I would love to get to the point when I can feel I'm part of that 1%.  Until then, I have much bigger things to learn, most of them involving my trigger finger.

Again, thanks!
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by Chris Miceli on 5/2/2018, 2:43 pm

mikemyers wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:
Jerry had I’m guessing hundreds of hours testing lead 38 bullets. What he and the other gentleman I can’t remember his name learned was a case that isn’t optimally expanded swaged soft lead. Which messes up accuracy.  Load a round and after you seat the bullet do not crimp it and pull the bullet out and measure it it should not be smaller or disformed in anyways from a new lead bullet

You forget that the products satisfy 99% of the masses. We are that last 1% well some of us are
One thing I can do, is take apart one of the dummy rounds I just loaded, and measure the diameter of the removed bullet, compared to a new bullet.  I will do that today.

I would love to get to the point when I can feel I'm part of that 1%.  Until then, I have much bigger things to learn, most of them involving my trigger finger.

Again, thanks!

A hard cast lead will probably not show as much deformation as swaged bullets
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by mikemyers on 5/2/2018, 2:55 pm

#801 Bullet, new from box:   0.4515 to 0.4520" diameter. (Depends on rotating the bullet, varies)
After insertion and removal:  0.4500

I tried to measure the unloaded bullet just below the line on the bullet from crimping the shell.


added later - near the base of the unloaded bullet, it's still 0.4520, occasionally 0.4515, depending on where I measure.
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by james r chapman on 5/2/2018, 7:01 pm

Remember, lead bullets, whether cast or swaged, are designed to obturate and seize the rifling.

I'n revolvers it's quite common to have the chamber throats be .001/.002 larger than the barrel bore dia.
As long as you size your bullets for the chamber throats life is good.
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by mikemyers on 5/2/2018, 8:58 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
i've had those dies.. they don't expand enough for a .452 lead bullet or a correct depth. the custom NOE are your best best......
Chris, do you have the values for diameter and length that we need, for 38 Special and for 45 ?

Or, are the values calculated from this information:

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php?topic=1795.0

I will call Redding, and get their dimensions, assuming they have the information available.
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by Chris Miceli on 5/2/2018, 9:00 pm

mikemyers wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:
i've had those dies.. they don't expand enough for a .452 lead bullet or a correct depth. the custom NOE are your best best......
Chris, do you have the values for diameter and length that we need, for 38 Special and for 45 ?

Or, are the values calculated from this information:

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php?topic=1795.0

I will call Redding, and get their dimensions, assuming they have the information available.

Measure the bullets you are using
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by mikemyers on 5/2/2018, 9:22 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:Measure the bullets you are using
38 
Magnus No. 514
38/357     148 grain
HBWC .357" diameter
My measurement - 0.3575" to 0.3580" diameter
 


45
Magnus #801
45     185 grain
BNWC .452" diameter
My measurement - .4520" diameter
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by rich.tullo on 5/2/2018, 9:31 pm

I use the .457 works better for lead but both are excellent. 
.456 x .452 (P) Exp. Plug
.457 x .453 (P) Exp. Plug
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by mikemyers on 5/2/2018, 9:34 pm

Can you please explain what those numbers represent?   Diameter and length??
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

Post by Wobbley on 5/2/2018, 9:41 pm

I believe they are the two diameters of the stepped expander. The main longer diameter is the smaller and the shorter step is the bigger. These plugs don’t “bell” in the Dillon bell expander sense.
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Re: Correct diameter expander for 45 acp lead

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