Concentration?

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

Concentration?

Post by davekp on 1/2/2018, 6:19 pm

After reading the "flow" topic, and much pondering, the question I have is:
During the execution phase of the shot (trigger operation) is it better to concentrate on a steady, rearward trigger pull while letting the subconscious take over sight/target alignment OR concentrate on sight/target alignment and let the subconscious execute the trigger operation?

davekp

Posts : 315
Join date : 2011-06-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by robert84010 on 1/2/2018, 6:42 pm

I brought this up a year or so ago. we discussed it for a bit. Hopefully something helps.

http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t4749-hold-focus-or-trigger-focus

I will add that I shifted to more trigger focus (aka concentration) and process focus, and did see an improvement in slow fire groups and scores.

robert84010

Posts : 494
Join date : 2011-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by CR10X on 1/2/2018, 7:49 pm

Been discussed a lot in the past.  There are probably quite a few topics on this general subject.  I think everyone has to work out the best option as a step towards getting the whole process to work.  

Anyway, I'll try a different sort of description this time and see how the concept comes across.  Could be a dud, or not.  

The goal is to keep the gun aligned, see the sight picture and feel (complete) the trigger.  The second two should come together at the optimum time during the wobble.  So for me, its better that I do not concentrate on either the sights or trigger, but on seeing the optimum time during the wobble to complete the shot.  (Well, actually right before the optimum time.  In respectful memory of Lones Wigger - Shoot the first 10 you see.  I'll always remember that quote.)

Choosing one or the other may not be the best or final option, but more of development of the process.  Try one then the other and see what happens.  But then try concentrating on neither and just seek to complete during the optimum time.    

When I'm shooting well that its almost like I can "feel the sights headed to the center" and "see the trigger is not influencing the sights". 
 
Hope this help, or at least doesn't confuse.

CR

CR10X

Posts : 730
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by tomj44 on 1/3/2018, 9:23 am

CR10X, Your words helped me.

tomj44

Posts : 6
Join date : 2015-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by Jon Eulette on 1/3/2018, 11:45 am

I believe trigger focused shooting is most important. If your stance has minor error you will/can still shoot 10's. If your breathing is slightly off you will/can still shoot 10's. If your grip is slightly off you will/can shoot 10's. If your sights are slightly off you will/can still shoot 10's. If your trigger control is off you will not shoot 10's.
I find it critically important to train trigger control over all the other fundamentals. I developed my shot plan around the trigger squeeze. Works for me!
Jon
avatar
Jon Eulette

Posts : 1999
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by orpheoet on 1/3/2018, 2:31 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:I believe trigger focused shooting is most important. If your stance has minor error you will/can still shoot 10's. If your breathing is slightly off you will/can still shoot 10's. If your grip is slightly off you will/can shoot 10's. If your sights are slightly off you will/can still shoot 10's. If your trigger control is off you will not shoot 10's.
I find it critically important to train trigger control over all the other fundamentals. I developed my shot plan around the trigger squeeze. Works for me!
Jon
That's new goal. Well said, thank you
avatar
orpheoet

Posts : 664
Join date : 2014-07-29
Age : 50
Location : Lakewood, Oh

Back to top Go down

Flow, Concentration and Trigger control

Post by mhayford45 on 2/2/2018, 3:57 pm

After several months of working on this exact topic, I have come to the conclusion that "Flow" does exist but is not important as it cannot be reliably achieved on demand for shooting. 

Concentration, in general, is important, but no more than any other item in your shot process. However, focused concentration upon the most important items in your shot process is a must. So, what is the most important? There are a few that should be in the list always and a few that will be added and subtracted as needed for remedial work.

What are the most important shot process items to focus upon?  For consistency in shooting Xs, stable grip pressure, wrist stabilization and trigger control is more important than sight alignment.  I have proved this to myself on the matches in which my hold is not as good. more Xs when I focus on the three just mentioned. 

Also, "Intention" is a must. You must intend to shoot a good shot and then execute that shot and that shot only.

mhayford45

Posts : 26
Join date : 2013-02-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by Amati on 2/3/2018, 1:42 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:If your sights are slightly off you will/can still shoot 10's. 


Huh? I'm lost there. When my front sight is off then my shot is off as well.

Amati

Posts : 226
Join date : 2017-12-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by Chris Miceli on 2/3/2018, 1:49 pm

Amati wrote:
Jon Eulette wrote:If your sights are slightly off you will/can still shoot 10's. 


Huh? I'm lost there. When my front sight is off then my shot is off as well.

Try this experiment, while shooting the gun off the bench align the sights perfectly take a shot. It should be a X in the center....hopefully. Now incrementally move the front sight so it is not perfectly aligned. Some allowance is there to be off slightly and still shoot 10s. You can do it with a dot as well, I try my best to keep the dot centered in the tube.
avatar
Chris Miceli

Posts : 2239
Join date : 2015-10-27
Location : Northern Virginia

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by Amati on 2/3/2018, 2:25 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
Amati wrote:
Jon Eulette wrote:If your sights are slightly off you will/can still shoot 10's. 


Huh? I'm lost there. When my front sight is off then my shot is off as well.

.... Now incrementally move the front sight so it is not perfectly aligned. Some allowance is there to be off slightly and still shoot 10s.  
 

To the first, OK, I'll try it tomorrow but the geometry of it says no. We shall see.

Amati

Posts : 226
Join date : 2017-12-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by Chris Miceli on 2/3/2018, 2:46 pm

Amati wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:
Amati wrote:
Jon Eulette wrote:If your sights are slightly off you will/can still shoot 10's. 


Huh? I'm lost there. When my front sight is off then my shot is off as well.

.... Now incrementally move the front sight so it is not perfectly aligned. Some allowance is there to be off slightly and still shoot 10s.  
 

To the first, OK, I'll try it tomorrow but the geometry of it says no. We shall see.

you should be able to have slight misalignment and still shoot tens.
avatar
Chris Miceli

Posts : 2239
Join date : 2015-10-27
Location : Northern Virginia

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by lyman1903 on 2/3/2018, 3:04 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
Amati wrote:
Jon Eulette wrote:If your sights are slightly off you will/can still shoot 10's. 


Huh? I'm lost there. When my front sight is off then my shot is off as well.

Try this experiment, while shooting the gun off the bench align the sights perfectly take a shot. It should be a X in the center....hopefully. Now incrementally move the front sight so it is not perfectly aligned. Some allowance is there to be off slightly and still shoot 10s. You can do it with a dot as well, I try my best to keep the dot centered in the tube. 

makes sense to me,

x ring is what , 1.5"?
10 ring is ~3"

if the gun and person are centered on the x,  and just slightly off will clip the X ring or be in the 10..

lyman1903

Posts : 109
Join date : 2017-12-26
Location : Beach Va, not Va Beach

http://www.chesterfieldarmament.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by Jack H on 2/3/2018, 3:10 pm

Long ago:


FOCUS 1


Posted by Mako on December 30, 2003
Focusing on the front sight is paramount ... the white dot helps me ...
The legendary russian coach that had the pistol articles in the ISSF magazine this year ... and occasionally posts here ... noted that "all" elite shooters have strong grips. The Marines say, Tight Grip, Tight Groups. I think experienced shooters sort of automatically develop strong grips. I've used various exercises to help my grip. I find that I have to stretch it to avoid stiffness ...
Free Pistol World Record holder, Match plus Finals, Ex-Marine Bill Demarest uses a Super strong grip. When he takes his hand off of the grip ... the inside is white ... the outside red. He says ... it's like he's wringing the neck off of a chicken. Bill claims that a strong grip makes one more consistent ... and helps avoid flyers.
Read the Interviews on the Pilkgun web site ...
Many top shooters say that you can't concentrate on multipule things at once ... well ... so your concentration should be on the front sight and sight alignment ... and the trigger pull needs to be automatic. There is no way you can react fast enough to "control" the trigger ... it must be automatic ... except that you must be able to stop the trigger pull, even at the last moment ... in order to start over if things aren't going well.
By using general area aiming in the Sub-6 zone ... you again eliminate having to concentrate on one more thing ...


FOCUS 2


Someone told me, and I can't remember who, about some national champion shooter, and I can't remember who for that either, that when the national champion felt he was at a plateau or in a slump, would change something about his gun. Different sights, grip, different gun, whatever. He did this because it made him focus on the fundamentals again.
Convoluted sentence, but the idea is simple. When things are routine, you can get too comfortable. When you get comfortable, you can get lazy. When you get lazy, you don't focus. If a change in the routine makes you focus, it might get you out of a slump or off a plateau. Sally Bartoo


*


My suggestion would be to try and change how you apprach the shot. I would try and think of the shot not only as holding and firing but add on follow through also. By thinking about following through, you will lengthen how long you are focusing on the shot. What might be happening is you are focusing so hard on taking a shot when your hold is good that at the last second you are so anxious to see what the shot value is that you may loose your concentration for that split second, thus resulting in the 7s and other unwanted shots as well as "loosing your sights" as you put it. Don't know if this will help you, but for me, especially on electronic targets, it is very helpful for me to think about following through instead of flying off the rifle to look at the screen. [an air gunner]


*


I had the same problem - losing focus and concentration on the front sight. After some observation, Coach Buljung suggested I was holding the sight picture too long. In his opinion, this causes attention loss for a variety reasons - one of which could be depletion of oxygen. He made the following two suggestions which helped immensely: I'm not sure if one or the other worked or if it was the combined result that did it: 1. Part of your shot plan should include taking in several deep "cleansing" breaths before taking in your final breath which you will hold and carry you thru the shot. Doing this ensures maximum intake\availability of oxygen. 2. "Stop screwing around and holding so long especially when bringing the gun up or down to your aiming point. Get it there, get it settled and initiate positive pressure on the trigger. If something breaks the shot plan - PUT THE GUN DOWN and start over you dope" Suggestion number two is the verbatim instructions he gave me. Feel free to leave out the "dope" part if you adopt any of this advice.
Good shootin to ya Paul F. Paul Figlia - Attorney at Law
avatar
Jack H

Posts : 1487
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Oregon

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by Jack H on 2/3/2018, 3:28 pm

And this. I call it Zinsology 101

The great posts recently that have dived into the mind set for shooting leave me to think that there is no one correct technique to shoot, either physical or mental technique.
You listen to many dialogues on how to, and make your own combined versions that work for you.
One caveat I can see is thinking too much, trying to tell the subconscious what to "do" rather than what you "want".
After a certain skill level, I believe the shooting must become more of a flow of moves rather than steps at a time. Jack H
Jack, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT - BRIAN


avatar
Jack H

Posts : 1487
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Oregon

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by Amati on 2/3/2018, 3:35 pm

Jack H wrote:......
Many top shooters say that you can't concentrate on multipule things at once ... well ... so your concentration should be on the front sight and sight alignment ... and the trigger pull needs to be automatic. 

Good post and I'm on board with this. Thanks.

Amati

Posts : 226
Join date : 2017-12-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by Bullseye_Stan on 2/9/2018, 8:30 am

"Many top shooters say that you can't concentrate on multipule things at once ... well ... so your concentration should be on the front sight and sight alignment ... and the trigger pull needs to be automatic."


Or...other top shooters say the trigger pull needs to be the focus and the sight alignment automatic.  But all seem to agree that you can only focus on one thing at time. The Force is not with me... but I accept the philosophy of Yoda: "do or do not, do not try". Smile

Bullseye_Stan

Posts : 273
Join date : 2017-06-11
Location : Hampton Roads, VA

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by Tim:H11 on 2/9/2018, 9:14 am

Bullseye_Stan wrote:"Many top shooters say that you can't concentrate on multipule things at once ... well ... so your concentration should be on the front sight and sight alignment ... and the trigger pull needs to be automatic."


Or...other top shooters say the trigger pull needs to be the focus and the sight alignment automatic.  But all seem to agree that you can only focus on one thing at time. The Force is not with me... but I accept the philosophy of Yoda: "do or do not, do not try". Smile

If you drive a car then you focus both on steering and excelleratuon at the same time. If you have ever driven a fork lift, then you are very careful with the throttle and the steering. Especially with 2000 plus pounds 15 or 20 feet in the air some times higher. I see the dot and know it’s there and do my best to keep it where I want it or close but “more”  focus is on the trigger than the dot. I am aware of both though.
avatar
Tim:H11

Posts : 1278
Join date : 2015-11-04
Age : 30
Location : Columba, TN

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by mspingeld on 2/9/2018, 10:24 am

My humble opinion:




I believe one cannot focus on more than one thing at a time but, you can shift focus sequentially:
 
1-First, focus on proper stance, then
2-Focus on proper grip and sight alignment, then
3-Shift focus to trigger movement
 
While focusing on these things, vision still functions. In other words, while focusing on one of the above you can still see the sight picture.
 
Once an item of focus becomes habit, or relegated to the sub-conscious, it no longer requires conscious focus. That’s why you can drive without focusing on the operation of the steering wheel or gas pedal or brake pedal. You did when you were first learning to drive but those activities are now sub-conscious. You do still need to see what’s going on. Your brain will trigger the appropriate sub-conscious use of the steering wheel, gas or brake, based on what you see.
 
In shooting, at the beginning, you need to consciously focus on each of the required fundamentals. Perfect practice will eventually allow each of them to become habit, i.e. sub-conscious, so, with time, shooting will not require a lot of “thought”. What you see will trigger the proper action.

 
For me, I still need to focus on proper trigger movement the most. Smooth, straight back, non-stop, isolated. With enough dry & live fire, that too will become sub-conscious and I will achieve "flow" or zen and I can stop all this darn thinking!

mspingeld

Posts : 331
Join date : 2014-04-19
Age : 57
Location : New Jersey

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by Bullseye_Stan on 2/9/2018, 12:57 pm

Tim:H11 wrote:
Bullseye_Stan wrote:"Many top shooters say that you can't concentrate on multipule things at once ... well ... so your concentration should be on the front sight and sight alignment ... and the trigger pull needs to be automatic."


Or...other top shooters say the trigger pull needs to be the focus and the sight alignment automatic.  But all seem to agree that you can only focus on one thing at time. The Force is not with me... but I accept the philosophy of Yoda: "do or do not, do not try". Smile

If you drive a car then you focus both on steering and excelleratuon at the same time. If you have ever driven a fork lift, then you are very careful with the throttle and the steering. Especially with 2000 plus pounds 15 or 20 feet in the air some times higher. I see the dot and know it’s there and do my best to keep it where I want it or close but “more”  focus is on the trigger than the dot. I am aware of both though.

I can't do that.  For example, when I ride a motorcycle and shift gears I can focus on shifting gears, but generally don't.  When I focus on the road, say to avoid an accident or pothole, I don't focus on the throttle or steering - and never look at the pothole.  I can swerve and apply brakes or throttle simultaneously but not focus on either, the same goes for changing gears and applying the clutch.  I tend to spend my time on a motorcycle in situational awareness mode, watching out for bad drivers and texting drivers (which, could be considered the same) with no focus on braking, throttle, and steering.  I really wish I could focus on more than one task at a time, but can't.

I can't say no-one can, because there is always the exception to the rule, but training the subconscious - like when to roll on the throttle or emergency brake - is a practiced skill set.  Similarly, pistol shooting is an acquired skill.  The more it is performed, the better it (should) get.  But, if changes are continuously being made to the practice then it generally takes longer to acquire that skill.

Also in motorcycle riding, some people aren't very good and crash.  I can say the same about pistol shooting in that some will never break the marksman shooting level - and that can be due to health, vision, or physical disabilities.  But, unlike motorcycle riding, if basic safety rules are learned then the risk of harm is very low (IMO).  To shoot a pistol accurately, multiple actions must be coordinated at the same time.  I can only focus on one.

Maybe a better analogy is trap shooting.  The mounting of the shotgun, trigger pull, swing, and follow through are all sub-conscious - at least for me.  If the focus is not on the pigeon, it will not break.  When I shot smallbore, back in the day, dry firing was as much about practicing the position as trigger work.  With a 4 oz. trigger, it's easier for the squeeze to become more subconscious (IMO) and the standing position was when jerking a shot (relatively speaking) could still happen.  100% of the (my) focus was on the target viewed through the front sight.

p.s. I learned to ride a motorcycle (dirt bike) in my youth along with shooting a rifle and shotgun.  I expect I'll always be a better rifle shot and shotgun shooter than pistol shooter because it was learned earlier in life.  At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Bullseye_Stan

Posts : 273
Join date : 2017-06-11
Location : Hampton Roads, VA

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by Jack H on 2/9/2018, 3:36 pm

There is a major difference in concentration to direct something, vs concentration to observe it.  It follows from my statement about telling the subconscious what you want vs what to do.  My simplest description of "want" is to see the sight as I trigger.
avatar
Jack H

Posts : 1487
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Oregon

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by mspingeld on 2/9/2018, 4:17 pm

Hi Jack,

Interesting post about different type of concentration. In my post above, I think I'm telling my conscious what to do, not my subconscious. I'm working on getting that smooth, straight back, non-stop, isolated trigger pull into the subconscious. I'm doing that by consciously doing it perfectly until I don't have to think about it. Am I on the right track here?

mspingeld

Posts : 331
Join date : 2014-04-19
Age : 57
Location : New Jersey

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by mikemyers on 2/11/2018, 8:55 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:I believe trigger focused shooting is most important. If your stance has minor error you will/can still shoot 10's. If your breathing is slightly off you will/can still shoot 10's. If your grip is slightly off you will/can shoot 10's. If your sights are slightly off you will/can still shoot 10's. If your trigger control is off you will not shoot 10's.
I find it critically important to train trigger control over all the other fundamentals. I developed my shot plan around the trigger squeeze. Works for me!
Jon
I never would have written it as nicely as Jon did, but from all these years of enjoying and learning from these forums, only one of the things he mentioned is almost certain to mess up the shot.  The way I look at it, he mentioned six things that might effect the shot:

  • stance
  • creating
  • grip
  • sights
  • trigger control  


I think a few more things can be added to that list.  Anyway, in my own goofy way of visualizing this, the "error" that might cause the biggest problem in the shot should be at the top of the list for what to concentrate on.  Trigger Control.


Or, for a silly example I tell people every so often, suppose someone threw a bunch of coins on the ground, and told you that you had 20 seconds to pick up what you wanted to keep.  Would you start picking coins up at random, or specifically look for the larger coins to go after first.  

I'm writing this as a novice.  If I was as talented as I think some of you are, and you're already excellent at all of those things, I imagine the one you'd be "thinking of" is whichever one you felt needed improvement at that moment in time.   IMHO.
avatar
mikemyers

Posts : 1022
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 74
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by dronning on 2/11/2018, 9:57 pm

Unless you have some $20 gold pieces in there they will all still be there when the 20 seconds is up. Smile
- Dave
avatar
dronning

Posts : 1730
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 64
Location : Lakeville, MN

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by Aprilian on 2/12/2018, 8:59 am

dronning wrote:Unless you have some $20 gold pieces in there they will all still be there when the 20 seconds is up. Smile
- Dave
Sorry to hear your back is still bugging you  Rolling Eyes

lol!
avatar
Aprilian

Posts : 519
Join date : 2016-05-13
Location : Minnesota

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by CR10X on 2/12/2018, 11:55 am

I've watched this thread develop and then kinda wander off.

How about this just to keep this discussion going.    

I sometimes think that Process, Concentration, Focus, and Observing as just steps to get to the best Flow or Zen state, Subconscious, or however you want to describe the thoughts and actions that help produce the best acceptable shot for you.  

Basically, anything that can be described as Concentration, Focus or Process is simply a tool to get all the different parts of shooting understood and accepted in order to perform acceptable shot where all the parts come together at the optimum time.  

So, maybe train on the parts, even concentration or focus on whatever, but also just shoot and see what happens. If its working well, then wouldn't that be the best way to shoot, even in a match?   

Everyone has to start somewhere.  The question is, how far are you willing to go (trying new things) to see how far you can go?

  A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen. 

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!" 

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

CR10X

Posts : 730
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Concentration?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum