Should I change powder?

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Should I change powder?

Post by wizzer on 1/3/2018, 9:47 am

When I started reloading for my 1911 .45 back in the 1970's I used WW231. Matter of fact, I have never used anything different.  This past weekend through a large swap meet at the LGC, I aquired a fresh 8 lb jug of WW231.  My question is, have I truly missed anything of consequence by not trying any of the newer powders introduced since?  Should I sell or trade the 231? Not saying I want to be stuck in the last century---just saying.

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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by cdrt on 1/3/2018, 11:17 am

I have been using Bullseye since I started shooting Conventional Pistol matches in 1974.  Really did not see a reason to change to something different.  When Bullseye was scarce a couple years ago, I tried WST and found it to be a good substitute for my .45 ACP loads.  I have not tried it in the .38 Special since I had enough Bullseye to still load for it.  I just tried some IMR Target and it is basically Bullseye from a different company; so if Bullseye gets scarce again, I have a substitute.
Bottom line though, if 231 works and you are happy with it, why change?
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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by Bullseye_Stan on 1/3/2018, 12:47 pm

The Hogdon HP38 powder has the same burning characteristics and can be substituted for W231.  If it makes you feel better, use Hogdon HP38 since it is a 'newer' powder.  When companies start duplicating a product (and call it by their own brand name), it indicates (to me) it is a very good product.  Innovation does not guarantee or ensure a superior product, only one that is new.

Although, if I could find a substitute for Bullseye that was cleaner burning, cost about the same, and was readily available, that would be good.

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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by james r chapman on 1/3/2018, 1:59 pm

231 will work great for you.
When you run out, then try a # of something else.
I think someone said shoot more, don't go down the rabbit hole.
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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by Chris Miceli on 1/3/2018, 2:09 pm

i say buy a new powder, we gotta keep them powder companies afloat....they are hurting since POTUS 45.
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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by R*P*DR* on 1/3/2018, 3:40 pm

Hogdon HP 38 Is WW 231  At the shot show I ask a Hogdon Rep he said he could not tell me. But he showed me the display WW 231 and HP38 Can's both had the same Lot Number! Knowing Hogdon makes Winchesters Powders It would be VERY confusing to have two types of powder with the same lot number! I have been watching for this and have seen it several times both powder's with the same lot number. Use the WW231 if it works don't fix it.           I have tried several powders and keep coming back to Bulseye!

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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by sbtzc on 1/3/2018, 4:48 pm

I tried Clays because I read here it was cleaner. If it was, it was only a little bit. But it burns differently at different temperatures. Maybe even different air pressure or altitude.

For me, WW231 meters consistently, burns consistently regardless of temperature or where I'm at and is relatively inexpensive. Plus, it works well for .45, .38, .357 and 9mm.

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Powder choice

Post by BEA on 1/3/2018, 7:18 pm

When I started competitive shooting back in the 70's the 2 powder choices were Bullseye and 231.  I chose Bullseye and have never changed.  Hodgdon does not make Win powder (they do not make any smokeless powder) but they do own the marketing rights.  Anyway, there are several good choices so I guess it just depends on what you have access to.  My choice and recommendation is Bullseye.

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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by C.Perkins on 1/3/2018, 7:31 pm

BEA wrote:When I started competitive shooting back in the 70's the 2 powder choices were Bullseye and 231.  I chose Bullseye and have never changed.  Hodgdon does not make Win powder (they do not make any smokeless powder) but they do own the marketing rights.  Anyway, there are several good choices so I guess it just depends on what you have access to.  My choice and recommendation is Bullseye.
+1

Clarence
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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by BE Mike on 1/4/2018, 7:31 am

R*P*DR* wrote:Hogdon HP 38 Is WW 231  At the shot show I ask a Hogdon Rep he said he could not tell me. But he showed me the display WW 231 and HP38 Can's both had the same Lot Number! Knowing Hogdon makes Winchesters Powders It would be VERY confusing to have two types of powder with the same lot number! I have been watching for this and have seen it several times both powder's with the same lot number. Use the WW231 if it works don't fix it.           I have tried several powders and keep coming back to Bulseye!
What's your source for Hodgdon making Winchester powder? IIRC, Hodgdon, for many years only marketed gun powder and manufactured none. Things may have changed over the years. Please educate me.
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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by USSR on 1/4/2018, 7:52 am

Hodgdon has never made a powder, and still doesn't.   They simply have the Hodgdon label placed on the cannisters at the manufacturer's plant.

Don
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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by R*P*DR* on 1/4/2018, 8:13 am

In 2006 Hodgdon was Licensed by Winchester (apparently) for sales not manufacture of the powder. But why would they use the same Lot number for both powders? I was told they made there powder in the Harrington Ks Plant. I wonder if they purchase over run  Winchester powder and package it there in Harrington Ks?

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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by jglenn21 on 1/4/2018, 8:22 am

Much of hodgdon pistol powder is made by st marks


Several Win and hodgdon labeled powders are the same

231 and hp38

760 and h414

296 and h110 


Most of their rifle powders are ADI
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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by jglenn21 on 1/4/2018, 8:25 am

IMR powders are also licensed by Hodgdon and come from ADI mainly
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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by jglenn21 on 1/4/2018, 8:33 am

If you look up their mds  and compare load data/ pressure from the Hodgdon online load site you'll see that are  the same.  Google who makes 231 and you find several threads with the research..

Been that way for a while.

If you have older canisters I would not assume they are the same.
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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by Wobbley on 1/4/2018, 9:07 am

jglenn21 wrote:IMR powders are also licensed by Hodgdon and come from ADI mainly

Most of the IMR series come from Canada.

From the records I’ve seen.

General Dynamics St Marks Florida makes the Winchester ball powders and Hodgdon powders HP-38®️ H110®️ H414®️ H380®️ Lil' Gun®️ Hybrid 100VTM HS6 H335®️ BL-C(2)®️ Titewad®️ Titegroup®️ Longshot®️ US869®️ LEVEREVOLUTION®️ SUPERFORMANCE®️ CFE®️ Pistol CFE®️ 223 CFE®️ BLK

Thales Australia makes H4227®️ H4895®️ H4198®️ Varget®️ H4350®️ H50BMG®️ H4831®️ H4831SC®️ H1000®️ Retumbo®️ H322®️ Benchmark®️ Clays, International, Universal, Hodgdon 800X, Hodgdon 700X ( not clear on the last 2).

General Dynamics Valleyfield Que Canada makes all IMR powders.

These are from the MSDS on the website.



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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by desben on 1/4/2018, 10:09 am

Just to confuse things a bit... I understood Clays was now made in Canada since 2016. I had watched a couple videos where people were comparing the good ol' Australian Clays with the new Canadian product.

I see the MSDS that links the Hodgdon 700X to Australia. I wonder if it's different from IMR Hi-Skor 700X, which I thought was a Canadian product.

Regardless, I think that Win231/HP-38 is good powder. But I prefer WST Laughing
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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by Gary Wells on 1/4/2018, 10:30 am

BEA wrote:When I started competitive shooting back in the 70's the 2 powder choices were Bullseye and 231.  I chose Bullseye and have never changed.  Hodgdon does not make Win powder (they do not make any smokeless powder) but they do own the marketing rights.  Anyway, there are several good choices so I guess it just depends on what you have access to.  My choice and recommendation is Bullseye.
+2. I love Bullseye powder so much I have about 12 lbs. on hand.

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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by troystaten on 1/4/2018, 2:30 pm

I would go ahead and use the w231, perfectly good powder for the 45acp and you have a lot of it so you can get your load dialed in and shoot.  At 4.5 grains per shot you have enough powder for about 12,400 rounds.  As for old school,w231 is the new stuff compared to us folks using Bulleye.

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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by noylj on 1/4/2018, 4:03 pm

The most accurate powder I have found for my .45s is 231/HP38—it was 452AA. Red Dot is second, Bullseye is third, and AA2 is fourth.

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Changing powderne

Post by BEA on 1/4/2018, 7:59 pm

In my opinon it is very difficult to make a claim that one powder is consistently more accurate than another. There are so many factors inherent to the equipment that can effect accuracy. It is not like a benchrest rifle shooter who has equipment that is truly dialed in, super precise with little mechanical error.  Different recipes can truly be evaluated in such a platform.  Comparatively speaking, a 1911 possesses sloppy tolerances.  As 1911 shooters, probably our best way to evaluate accuracy is with a Ransom Rest. These are finicky devices that can yield varying results due to operator technique.  Accurate 1911's shoot most all the common target loads well, but a day or 2 on the range testing a few loads is not enough of a test sample to make lifelong claims. It does provide some valuable info of your pistols capability and gives (or robs) you of needed confidence for using that gun/recipe.  One recipe might shoot better than another due to consistency of the brass that happened to be used, how clean was the inside of the brass (effects bullet tension) or the temperature of that day, rest technique, how clean was the gun, recoil spring poundage, powder lot characteristics (all powders vary a little from lot to lot) etc.  The next day, another load may happen to group best.  For the most part, whatever powder you are using, with whatever bullet you have, others using the same components are using pretty much the same load within a small range. The bottom line is use what you can most easily get or what is priced the best.  Test to your satisfaction and then spend lots of time training.

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Re: Should I change powder?

Post by teg2658 on 1/4/2018, 9:26 pm

Winchester Super Target, 25 Yd indoor in the early 90s I shot 893 twice with H&G 68s, 3.8 with winchester primers. Nobler 185s with 5.0 WST, winchester primers, 1.24 Oal for 50 yds, shot 888 at Camp Perry in the mid 90s. I owned a Ransom Rest and tried every powder, always went back to WST.
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Re: Should I change powder?

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