Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

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Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by Steve K on Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:48 pm

I had asked in a previous post about ammunition for the 280 in 32 S&W Long. I tried a variety of loads for 50 yards and nothing works well. Some respondents say to change the barrel, but I can't find a different barrel. Does anyone have a recommendation for a barrel i.e. twist, manufacturer, and source? I use a 280 in .22 LR, and Gold Cup for .45, now I need a centerfire that will hold the black at 50 yards.

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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by messenger on Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:01 pm

I have had reasonable luck with Magnus 98gr cast LWC's but if you want X ring accuracy you will have to locate some H&N 100gr LHBWC's. Until then I would shoot your Gold Cup in CF. I originally tried to find someone that would install a fast twist barrel but no body is doing it any more.

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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by Chris Miceli on Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:08 pm

dave wilson followed by david sams would your best bet.
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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by messenger on Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:34 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:dave wilson followed by david sams would your best bet.
I tried Dave Wilson and he is no longer making fast twist 32 barrels. I never knew David Sams made barrels. If he does let us know.

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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by Chris Miceli on Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:05 pm

messenger wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:dave wilson followed by david sams would your best bet.
I tried Dave Wilson and he is no longer making fast twist 32 barrels. I never knew David Sams made barrels. If he does let us know.

Bill
i'm sure he can,  Also contact Jon i bet he could do something.
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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by Steve K on Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:59 am

I posted the same question on TargetTalk and got a response from Dave Wilson. He said the process is very involved and expensive. He further suggested to consentrate on the bullet and dies; good advise.
Thanks for the responses.

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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by gregbenner on Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:23 pm

Steve K wrote:I posted the same question on TargetTalk and got a response from Dave Wilson. He said the process is very involved and expensive. He further suggested to consentrate on the bullet and dies; good advise.
Thanks for the responses.


Steve, I had the same conversation with dave Wilson perhaps a year ago, pretty much the same advice.  By carefully following his advice as precisely as possible I now have 32 long reloads that will easily hold the 10 ring, approaching the x ring at 50y (in a Ransom rest). Just fyi.

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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by fc60 on Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:57 pm

Greetings,

I wonder when I quit machining custom barrels?

Good thing I read the BaloneyNet. Now I can halt my barrel projects to work on other things...

Cheers,

Dave
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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by Wobbley on Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:52 pm

Obviously you’re not in on the secret. Probably too busy working...
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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by messenger on Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:22 pm

fc60 wrote:Greetings,

I wonder when I quit machining custom barrels?

Good thing I read the BaloneyNet. Now I can halt my barrel projects to work on other things...

Cheers,

Dave
Hi Dave'

A couple years ago I contacted you about a fast twist barrel for the Benelli I had at the time. Your response was you were too busy with other projects. My mistake if I assumed you were no longer making custom barrels. You making any fast twist barrels for HP Pardini's?

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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by fc60 on Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:43 pm

Greetings,

The Pardini, Benelli, Haemmerli, Walther, etc. barrels all shoot well with GOOD bullets.

My suggestion is to spend the money on a set of swaging dies and press.

Re-swage the Speer 98 "Plinkers" in 0.314" dies that clean up the diameter and base turning a reasonably accurate bullet into a Match bullet.

Or, wait until H&N fix their swaging press and join in on the group buy for their bullets.

I intentionally avoid Benelli barrels as it is difficult to remove the factory barrel for the average shooter without special tools.

Cheers,

Dave
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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by Chris Miceli on Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:12 pm

fc60 wrote:Greetings,

The Pardini, Benelli, Haemmerli, Walther, etc. barrels all shoot well with GOOD bullets.

My suggestion is to spend the money on a set of swaging dies and press.

Re-swage the Speer 98 "Plinkers" in 0.314" dies that clean up the diameter and base turning a reasonably accurate bullet into a Match bullet.

Or, wait until H&N fix their swaging press and join in on the group buy for their bullets.

I intentionally avoid Benelli barrels as it is difficult to remove the factory barrel for the average shooter without special tools.

Cheers,

Dave
bigger hammer?
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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by 38Super!! on Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:17 pm

Seems that it would be far cheaper to buy the faster twist barrel which produces the desired accuracy with good old Speer 4600 bullets and as proven by the test targets provided with the barrel. 

You still have to buy the bullets to re-swage them and the cost of an appropriate press alone would be near the cost of the faster twist barrel if you got a RCBS Rock Chucker.  Don't know if the Dillon presses would work or not.  If you buy a Corbon press, then you are in the area of the cost of a few faster twist barrels.

Corbon dies to re-swage are very expensive as well.

Does anyone manufacture .32 lead wadcutter bullets other than Speer?  Speer's production appears to be seasonal runs rather than a continuous production.

There are several cast bullet outfits - Penn and Magnus come to mind.  Penn will cast the .32 wadcutter in just about any diameter desired.

The comment re H&N having problems with their swaging press is interesting.  Word was, although not verified, that H&N was no longer exporting to Canada, the supplier for this hemisphere,  because there wasn't the market to make it worthwhile.  Don't believe that there is or has been a U.S. distributor for some time.

The .32 S&W Long is a lot of fun to shoot but just about all of the reasons normally heard or read seem justified and support using the 1911 for both CF and 45 aggregates.

The 32 S&W Long does not seem to be a popular round, particularly for Camp Perry.  There are several companies that make a .32 S&W Long pistol - Walther GSP variants, Pardini HP, Hammerli, Benelli, and SIG to name a few - and I have owned all mentioned except the Hammerli and SIG.  It would be interesting to know what the sales of each have been in recent years. 

I liked the Walther GSP Expert the best but I like the HP more and more as I shoot it.  Went to the HP because the GSP seemed too "nose-heavy.

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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by gregbenner on Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:24 pm

It's only far cheaper to buy a faster twist barrel if one is available? It doesn't seem as though anyone is interested in doing this. 

The Speer 4600 bullets are readily available, around seven cents each. The ones I have swaged shoot as well as H&Ns.

There are a group of shooters in process of importing a large purchase of H&N bullets, it's a slow process.

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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by 38Super!! on Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:45 am

gregbenner wrote:It's only far cheaper to buy a faster twist barrel if one is available? It doesn't seem as though anyone is interested in doing this. 

The Speer 4600 bullets are readily available, around seven cents each. The ones I have swaged shoot as well as H&Ns.

There are a group of shooters in process of importing a large purchase of H&N bullets, it's a slow process.

According to Dave Wilson's earlier posting in this thread, he is still making the faster twist barrels with perhaps the exception of Benelli's.  I'm not sure if "intentionally avoid" means that he does not make his barrels for Benelli or that he does but would rather not.  

Several web sites currently have the Speer 4600 bullets in stock.  That has not been the case in the past year or so.

Accordingly, a Dave Wilson barrel goes for somewhere around $300 to $400.  That is much, much cheaper than the swaging equipment needed to re-swage 4600's.

Your statement "The ones I have swaged shoot as well as the H&Ns" raises a few questions   What diameter of H&N .32 S&W Long do you shoot?  What kind of shooting - stock barrel, barrel mounted in a bullet tester, mounted in a pistol, what kind of pistol, match scores, etc.?  What criteria do you use to determine what you wrote.

When I purchased the barrel for my GSP Expert, Dave recommended H&N bullets which were used in his barrel tester to keep all 10 rounds in the x-ring illustrated by the test targets included with the barrel.  He sent the barrel untested in a pistol because his wife's GSP was an earlier model and my barrel would not fit.  He also mentioned that the Speer 4600 bullets shot well too but he separated them because the box would contain several that had been dinged during transportation.

With the HP, he also included test targets which were all in the x-ring using 1.6 of BE powder and Speer 4600.  Have no idea if they were re-swaged prior to testing.  He made no mention of that.  I have been able to closely replicate that in my HP from a rest using Speer 4600 straight out of the box and not sorted.  I do weigh powder for each round.

Someone named Chris in Canada worked for an outfit that had a name something like Ten-X.  He also made a barrel for my GSP Expert which was very accurate.  The problem was that the barrel was 2 inches longer that the stock barrel and greatly increased the weight up front.  Don't know if he still makes barrels.

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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by Chris Miceli on Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:59 am

I would say Mr. Wilson is the 32 S&W Long expert for 50yard accuracy.....if he says you don't need a new barrel and can achieve great accuracy with quality bullets he isn't leading you astray. I would consider it gospel.


Last edited by Chris Miceli on Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by gregbenner on Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:42 am

38 Super, if you are aware of (or find) someone, post a link to any experienced barrel makers who currently offer custom 32 long barrels. I couldn't find any.  I followed Dave's advice and feel no need to pursue it further. My swaged Speer bullets are .3143 diameter.  I have tested them in my Benelli, GSP and Pardini, using my Ransom Rest. I now load in a Star Reloader, had issues with consistentncy with my Dillon 550, likely due to the small powder charge.  I use 1.6 WST for the long line, and either 1.3 or 1.4 for the SL. 


If your Speer bullets from Dave were swaged, you would be able to tell easily just by comparing it to a standard Speer. I get very good results using the un swaged Speer 4600 (very acceptable at 25y) but not as consistent as with either the swaged ones or the H&Ns at 50. FWIW, I have been unable to find any other bullets that shoot as well. For me, cast bullets are barely accurate at 25, won't hold the 9 ring at 50. and cost at least as much as the Speer. YMMV


Since you indicate can replicate Dave Wilson's result with the standard Speer 4600s (X-ring) why would you want to change anything?
,

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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by 38Super!! on Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:29 pm

Interesting and informative.  The use of a bold italic font in your last post could be viewed as an indication of some level of frustration.  If so, not necessary.  We can learn a lot from each other even if the methodology to accomplish the same end is different.

My question is one of economics.  Why spend a lot of money for Corbon, or similar gear, when a faster twist barrel will suffice with unmodified Speer 4600 for a whole, whole, whole lot less?  Which is better is probably merely a personal preference, based largely on the capability of the shooter, and the depth of the shooter's pockets.  

If someone is thinking about shooting the 32 S&W Long, the idea of spending a few thousand dollars or more just to improve a bullet slightly seems to have little attraction.

Dave Wilson makes barrels so there is a current source with perhaps the exception of the Benelli.  As I have written in this thread, he does so by his own admission.

My experience with Penn and Magnus is that they are very accurate for 25 yds using 1.3 or 1.4 of N310, 700-X, Power Point, and 231.  1.4 of N310 or 1.6 BE for 50 yds.  All using a Wilson barrel in the HP.  50 yards is 10 or 9 ring at best.

Dave Wilson has posted that he has results with several of the same powders with the exception of Power Point.  For that, you have to contact him for information.

Back in the day before I got the Wilson barrel for the GSP Expert, I loaded Speer 4600 with 1.8 of BE, 231, or WST.  I used the Arrendondo Uniquek Tek micrometer measure in my 550B.  Holding the 9 ring was difficult with those loads as it was with a Benelli with the standard barrel.  At 25 yds, all were these loads produced X and 10 ring accuracy.

When Dave sent the barrel for the GSP, he recommended lower powder weights because while the faster twist increased accuracy, he wrote that the weights used with the stock barrel put unnecessary stress on the GSP.

When I was looking at the Benelli MP-95, Larry Carter was the Pardini dealer.  He said the Benelli could work for the 2700 because you could make up the 50 yd issues at the short line.  Homer at Champions Choice said the 32 S&W Long would work just fine.  Earl at CarlWaltherUSA told me that shooting the 32 S&W Long accurately at 50 yards was not what the gun and round were designed to do.  He used throwing a beer can accurately as an analogy.

When I was running matches at Fairfax Rod & Gun Club, a FBI agent shot in our matches who was a very accomplished BE shooter.  He shot in the mid 880's in all 3 aggregates with the Pardini SP, HP, and GT at a match.  About a week later, he did the same at Cavalier near Richmond.  His HP had a Wilson barrel and according to him, he was not very careful when reloading the 32.  He used to contribute on Targettalk as K5Tango.

Specific to your last post:

- Dave Wilson indicates he still makes faster twist barrels by his own admission in this thread.  Don't believe that he has a web site to post.
- the test targets for the Wilson HP barrel and the barrel package that I received did not contain any bullets so there is no way to compare.  Same was true for the GSP Expert barrel.
- I had the same problem with the Dillon small powder dispenser and that was why I got the Unique Tek dispenser.  I now load powder for each round individually using a RCBS ChargeMaster.  Extra work but worthwhile.  If I decide that it is too much work, I will go to the 38 Super or 45 for CF.  I don't intend to do that right now because I really enjoy shooting the 32 S&W Long for CF.  It has a different kind of recoil that is very easy
on arthritic joints below the shoulder.

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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by gregbenner on Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:09 pm

38 Super.  No frustration, didn't intend italics, only frustration was try to get rid of them (lol).

Early last year I was considering getting rid of my Benelli, since I couldn't get it to shoot well at 50.  Based on a recommendation from Jon, I asked Dave Wilson if he would test it for me. At the time, Dave had already indicated he was too busy to make me a custom barrel, but had given me reloading advice.

Dave agreed to test my barrel, suggesting I include several examples of my various reloads. I included several, both Lapua and Fiocchi brass,  
Lapua and Speer swaged bullets, Magnus and ?? cast bullets, as well as Fiocchi and Lapua Factory Loads.

He sent me maybe 20 test targets shot both with my bullets, as well as some of his reloads. As I recall, none of mine held the 10 ring (some of the cast bullets didn't even stay on the target), his mostly held the X ring. I decided to follow his advice as closely as possible, which has resulted in comparable results. 

I'm not suggesting other combinations won't work for others, in their guns, just that they don't work for me. 

I did try the UniqueTek powder dispenser on my Dillon (still have it). the Star is more consistent (for me) and is actually a bit faster than the Dillon.  Again, just following Dave's advice which has worked well.  Same with using Lapua brass. I shoot  500+ rds of 32/week, loading individually was never an option. Like you, I love shooting the 32L. 

Just FYI, I recently acquired another GSP with a custom Dave Wilson barrel. Jon is fluting the barrel since it is an inch longer and a bit nose heavy.  I suspect  (based on the test targets I got with it) that it will hold the x ring with standard Speers, but haven't tested it yet.  I also have a MG4 on order. It has a tighter barrel, so perhaps will shoot better with std Speer as well (the Speer is aprox .312 before swaging). No idea what the MG4 twist rate is yet?
 

I believe that with the right bullets, and reloading procedure, most 32 longs are capable of the X ring at 50. I love shooting the 32, and don't feel I give up anything on the LL.

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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by 285wannab on Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:16 pm

So I know nothing about this topic but I am wondering why you can't sleeve the barrel with a faster twist rate.

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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:21 pm

285wannab wrote:So I know nothing about this topic but I am wondering why you can't sleeve the barrel with a faster twist rate.
Depends on the OD of existing barrel whether you can sleeve it or not. Also being able to get the existing barrel into a lathe/spider to finish ream the chamber and crown the muzzle.
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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by 38Super!! on Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:30 pm

Mr. Benner:

Roger all.

Have a MG-1 which I use for our local air pistol matches as well as a FWB P-44.  Really like both.  The MG is much easier to adjust.  The P44 is kind of like the AW-93 re adjustments.  At least a couple of the physical science degrees are necessary to figure out what the Germans are trying to say.  Sadly, mine are in liberal arts.

Had a MG-2 (one of the good ones).  Only problem ever was that the extractor broke.  Really liked it too but decided to concentrate on the SP New and AW-93.  Shot it at the NRA Range Metro Pistol League and one night after the relay, the guy shooting next to me asked why I kept changing barrels.  Explained that it was the front loading magazine tube that I was changing.

The MG grips work on both but only one works both ways. Can't remember which doesn't and which does.  The grips are the best that I have experienced.

Have heard good things about the MG-4.  Thought long and hard about getting one.  If you ever need support or parts, contact Stephano at Matchguns.  He is always helpful and quick to respond (in English no less).  He also accepts Paypal.  I usually had parts as needed for the MG-1 and occasionally for the MG-2 within a week of making the Paypal payment.  He shipped via Italian Priority Post.  

The MG-2 and MG-4 are fairly complex and revolutionary in design but work great and the trigger is easily adjusted as is the grip.  Would appreciate your thoughts re the MG-4 when you have tried it out for awhile.

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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

Post by fc60 on Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:51 pm

Greetings 285wannab,

"So I know nothing about this topic but I am wondering why you can't sleeve the barrel with a faster twist rate."


Most 32 barrels are about 14mm diameter. With an 8mm bullet, this leaves only 3mm (1/8") wall thickness to work with.


Some of the manufacturers use Nitrided barrels. As a result, very difficult to machine through the hardened surface. Translation, hard on cutters and very time consuming.


Personally, I like to retain the original barrel intact, should the owner want to sell it later on.


Many times, it is easier to machine a new barrel from scratch. Here you control the process start to finish.




Speaking of "Fast Twist" barrels, they do help. Sadly, you still need GOOD bullets. The old Speer HBWC were dipped in a Beeswax lube and retained their diameter better and you could still see the knurling. They shot rather well. The new Speer 98 HBWC have been relabeled "PLINKERS". An indication Speer does not take them too serious. On a positive note, the new Speers have a dry lube that keeps the barrel cleaner than the old offering. This dry lube makes re-swaging the bullet a dream. Self lubricating and they do not gum up the dies. You still need to clean the punches with a brass brush on occasion.



Regarding a swaging press, it is a tool that has resale value. Try selling a five year old iPhone and reclaiming any investment. Additionally, you could buy Lead wire and swage your own from scratch. I do so and lube them in a ZipLoc sandwich bag with Lee Liquid Alox. With swaging, you can control the weight, diameter, nose shape, base (flat or HBWC) and alloy.


Speer are the only folks making 32 HBWC in the USA that I am aware of. For those who insist on using the cast bullets, I invite you to post some 10-shot test targets fired at 50 yards with the Random Rest, sandbags, barrel tester, etc. Also, I would like to know how the Lead fouling in the throat looks after 100 rounds and whether or not the barrel is still shooting X-ring at 50 yards.



The main reason I have been discouraging folks from spending good money on a new barrel is that they are convinced their factory barrel is incapable of good accuracy. Again, we return to the arena of using GOOD bullets. With GOOD bullets and careful reloading practice the once inaccurate factory barrel has been redeemed.



Since the supply of H&N bullets dried up, I have not been satisfied with the results of out of the box Speer. I will get several great groups; then, all of a sudden a flier appears for no reason.


Time to return to the Mann Kave. Lots of projects to attend to.


Cheers,


Dave
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Re: Hammerli 280 32 S&W Long Barrel

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