Pistol for training at home.

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Pistol for training at home.

Post by Amati on 1/11/2018, 7:39 pm

Pardini's K10 air pistols are close to $2K and the Baikal is no longer imported:

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/IZH_46M_Match_Air_Pistol/78

What is the smart buy for target practice at home? I can set up a 10 meter lane in the garage and any suggestions are appreciated.

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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by Tim:H11 on 1/11/2018, 7:57 pm

A used Baikal. 

Some people have said good things about this one for practice during the winter months or fun training. 

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Air_Venturi_V10_Match_Air_Pistol/61
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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by BerryhillAC on 1/11/2018, 7:59 pm

If I was in your shoes and wasn't ready to drop big money on an LP50, which is the best Bullseye trainer in my opinion, I would look at starting with a Daisy 747 or even 717.  If you can't find one of those a new Air Venturi V10 isn't too shabby.  The pellet loading is a bit cumbersome, but the trigger is decent.  A step up from there is a used IZH46, but those are fast approaching $500.  If you're looking at spending that much you can get an used PCP or even CO2 gun with expired cylinders for not much more if you keep your eyes peeled on Gunbroker and the like.  Those guns are a very big step up in quality.

Andrew

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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by Amati on 1/11/2018, 8:29 pm

Thanks guys. I've been looking but used Baikals are like hens teeth. 

There is an older Pardini K10 for $1K but ... the cylinder's date is expired so it is really priced the same as a new one, they hold their price!

The LP 50 is nice but a Pardini K12 would be a twin to my .22lr, so I'd go that way if I were willing to spend that much. 

The Venturi may be worth a look but I wish I could see one before I buy it. Maybe somebody who owns one will chime in.

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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by jglenn21 on 1/11/2018, 8:39 pm

the air Venturi started life as the Gamo compact..imported from Spain.. lots of info out there under that name. surprising gun for $270.. nice wood grips, full adjustable rear sight. trigger is adjustable and not bad at all.

My nephew has one so he can shoot AP matches with us for practice.. so far it's been perfect

the next pistol up would in my opinion be the FAS 6004.. it is simply the newest version of the FAS 604 from Italy..  good solid pistol for around $360 if memory serves
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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by willnewton on 1/11/2018, 9:01 pm

Crosman 1377 for $50 off Amazon. I know it is not expensive enough to be worthy among many folks here!

Obviously, they don’t own one. It is hands down, one of my favorite pistols because it is the best good, cheap fun you can buy. You can buy two or three, one for you and a buddy or spouse. You shoot it most anywhere in the house, garage, backyard, driveway, or a buddy’s BBQ. -Following all safety rules of course!

This from a guy that owns a Baikal 46, which I like quite a bit because, of course, it is a better pistol than the 1377 all around, but is still the same in concept, with no need for pumps, tanks, or cartridges. It has great trigger, grips, and sights, but it is NOT ten times better than the 1377 @$500

This is from a guy that also owns an LP50. Which I like quite a bit as well, because it the closest I will ever get to owning a European sports car. Smile It may shoot better than the Baikal, but I can’t shoot better than the Baikal, so no bonus there. It is convenient to not have to pump (as often) but is NOT forty times better than the 1377 @$2000+ (and you still need an air supply)

I can mount a red dot on all three. I can have ergo grips for all three. They all shoot the same ammo, use the same targets, and most importantly, use the same technique to fire a quality shot.

Only one of them cost $50!

I am not saying buy this as your only AP, but as your first AP, it may not be a bad choice. You can be shooting immediately while you wait for a Baikal to pop up or the V10 (rebadged Gamo) or the nicer Daisy pistols or a used competition pistol. Check targettalk and gunbroker, as stuff pops up there daily.
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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by john bickar on 1/11/2018, 9:15 pm

Thanks for the rec, Will. You have no idea how much s**t we buy from Amazon.

At $50, I can't afford not to buy one.
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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by Amati on 1/11/2018, 9:22 pm

jglenn21 wrote:FAS 6004.. it is simply the newest version of the FAS 604 from Italy..  good solid pistol for around $360 if memory serves

Nice gun but it is $515++  these days and they're hard to find.

Interesting comparison of the V10 and the FAS here:

https://www.airgunsarp.com/2017/04/05/head-to-head-airventuri-v10-vs-fas-6004/

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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by willnewton on 1/11/2018, 10:17 pm

john bickar wrote:Thanks for the rec, Will. You have no idea how much s**t we buy from Amazon.

At $50, I can't afford not to buy one.

Fair warning, the trigger is poop compared to a decent AP, but might be better than a Glock.  Wink If you take it apart you may understand why it feels like sandpaper rolling over gravel.

 I took my action apart and did some judicious light filing and sanding on the mating surfaces and it made things better, but you are only going to get so much return on polishing pot metal.  It is very simple mechanism and not hard to do.  No really, it is a step above Bronze Age tech in there.  Laughing

There is an interesting following of the 1322(.22) and 1377(.177).  Lots of youtube info and folks making upgrades, etc.  It is unbelievable the amount of turd polish that can be applied to these pistols.

I just saw no reason to go further than just a little smoothing out.  It is not worth more effort than that.  In many ways the 13xx  trigger is a more realistic version of a pistol trigger than the nicer air pistols mentioned because it heavier and less delicate.  

If you want more quality then make the leap to the $400+ pistols.  Don’t spend $400 trying to improve the Crosman.  It is not really about that.  It is just fun, but surprisingly accurate and consistent fun.  Every buddy of mine knows they can come shoot in the garage with me for fun when they visit.  My AP range is bigger than a pool table, but doesn’t take up near the floorspace. WIN!  cheers

The greatest virtue of the Crosman is how easy it is to share with others.  There is no price tag on that.
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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by Amati on 1/11/2018, 10:24 pm

I read the sights on those $515++ guns are not so hot. What to do?

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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by john bickar on 1/12/2018, 12:52 am

If you have the money, buy once and cry once. Buy the Pardini and shoot it for a couple years, then sell it for $200 less than you paid for it, at the worst. It's not like buying Bitcoin. Or a free pistol. Or a .22 short rapid fire pistol.

I bet I could sell my LP10 for what I paid for it 10 years ago.
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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by Bullseye_Stan on 1/12/2018, 6:17 am

I am still impressed by my Avanti (Daisy) 747 air pistol. The only place I've currently found them is(used) on Ebay (which, may not be a bad thing): https://www.ebay.com/i/312041138780?rt=nc

You will *not* out shoot a 747.  The trigger is a bit heavier than some other target air pistols, but for Bullseye shooting I think that's a bonus.  It's mostly die cast zinc and plastic (what is expected for ~$280) but seems to hold up fine.  It's not a light weight air pistol and might be considered bulky, but (again) I think those are not negative attributes for a Bullseye training airgun.  There is plenty of information on the internet about servicing, rebuilding, and operating the 747.  I recommend never cleaning the barrel.

If the FAS 6004 were available, that would be my 2nd choice.  As a caveat, that 2nd choice is mostly because I haven't owned one yet.

p.s. this is just my opinion (as usual), but I don't consider the 747 a 'piece of junk' owning (or having owned) Morini, Steyr, FWB, and RWS competition air pistols.

Edit:  Airguns of Arizona shows the FAS 6004 on their website but I would call and talk to someone before ordering.  YMMV, etc.


Last edited by Bullseye_Stan on 1/12/2018, 6:38 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : updated post)

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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by Amati on 1/12/2018, 6:43 am

Bullseye_Stan wrote:
Edit:  Airguns of Arizona shows the FAS 6004 on their website but I would call and talk to someone before ordering.  YMMV, etc.
Thanks. My first call today.

Back to JohnB and the Pardini. Don't think that I'm not very tempted....Very tempted.

BTW what is a nice piece of wood as a backer board that will allow some penetration so that they don't put holes in my cars?

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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by tjpepitone on 1/12/2018, 7:36 am

Have a look at the Weihrauch hw45.  It's got a good trigger, high build quality, approximates the feel of a .45, and has dovetails for scope rings.  It's a spring piston design that has 2 different power selections. 

The sights are the fiber optic style but with a scope it makes a nice BE practice gun.

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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by Chris Miceli on 1/12/2018, 7:51 am

Amati wrote:Pardini's K10 air pistols are close to $2K and the Baikal is no longer imported:

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/IZH_46M_Match_Air_Pistol/78

What is the smart buy for target practice at home? I can set up a 10 meter lane in the garage and any suggestions are appreciated.
2k for an old generation air pistol? the brand new k12 is like 1600 with 2 cylinders
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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by jglenn21 on 1/12/2018, 8:37 am

On the Fas the base pistol with ambi grips is 368 from air guns of Az.  Only the fancy grip model is 515.. I own one and had Andrew make me a set of 1911 grips for it..
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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by Amati on 1/12/2018, 10:22 am

You are correct Chris, I'm getting my numbers mixed up. The used K10 is $995++. The new K12 is $1,750 plus air tank plus tax etc 

Jglenn, AZ only has the Match model at $515 and I think .... I will get it.

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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by Slartybartfast on 1/12/2018, 11:16 am

As the FAS6004 is being discussed, remember to look up the tuning information for the pistol.
There are a few sources and I believe there's a thread on targettalk.org detailing the process of improving the quality and making the pistol more reliable.
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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by jglenn21 on 1/12/2018, 2:17 pm

targettalk thread on improving the FAS

http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=53523

if you want to tackle it,  shoot me a pm and I'll send you some O rings and the washer.. I did this to my FAS and it helped quit a bit.. also re-crowned the barrel in my lathe as part of the improvements.  Lot's of threads out their on the trigger adjustments too.
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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by Mac2 on 1/12/2018, 4:22 pm

By far the worst and most expensive mistake I ever made in competitive shooting was purchasing Steyr LP50 Compact with trigger force similar to Bullseye RF.  Winters are long in the North.  A five shot repeater seemed like a great idea.  Set up a range.  Got a motor driven pump, and tank for 300 bar air.  Had a very difficult time finding adapters to go from the tank to the small tank on the pistol.  Have several adapters in series.  Was able, at last, to fill pistol's tanks.  No instructions are provided that assist one - especially in loading the LP50 C.  Finally figured out which way the lead goes into the expensive magazine.  Worked on getting the thing to work.  Think it fired once by chance.  At last I determined that I was going to throw good money and effort into a scheme that was just not close enough to my 208 or any other pistol.  Boxed it up and sent it to store with the Arc.   That said, have a spring fired pistol that is reasonably accurate and fun to shoot (German version of Beeman P1) a few times - heavy spring.
Sounds as if others here have ideas about things that may go some distance towards your goals.  Please report back.

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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by Amati on 1/12/2018, 6:09 pm

jglenn21 wrote:targettalk thread on improving the FAS

http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=53523

if you want to tackle it,  shoot me a pm and I'll send you some O rings and the washer.. I did this to my FAS and it helped quit a bit.. also re-crowned the barrel in my lathe as part of the improvements.  Lot's of threads out their on the trigger adjustments too.

Oh yes, I want to tackle !!!  Great offer and I'll take you up on it. 
Going out of town tomorrow and will get back next week, just in time to receive it. I'll PM you once I open the box.

This airgunning thing is a pita, requires way too much research and strange pellet traps (most are junk) to stop wadcutter (!) pellets and stuff that's out of stock etc.

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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by Amati on 1/12/2018, 6:23 pm

Mac2 wrote:By far the worst and most expensive mistake I ever made in competitive shooting  .... Please report back.

You got me rolling on the floor because this is exactly how I felt when I started considering PCP in general and the Pardinis in particular. They all tell you the charging etc is so simple but they omit the mountains of money you have to dish out.
"Oh yeah" they say, "buy a used scuba tank for $80" ...-the cheapest one at my local dive shop was $450++ -  etc etc. 
Anyway, I ordered the FAS, trick pellets, a Gehmann trap and I'm building a backdrop. 

Thanks to this Forum and people like y'all I'm on the home stretch now.
I shall report.

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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by javaduke on 1/12/2018, 6:30 pm

Relatively inexpensive (and I mean, *relatively*) is the Alfa Proj PCP gun: https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Alfa_Proj_Competition_PCP_Pistol/1564/3919

One other interesting gun that I might pick up some day is 5-shot Ataman: https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Ataman_AP16_Regulated_Compact_Air_Pistol_Silver/4129
I'm a bit concerned about it being a .22 cal and not .177 but it may be still ok.

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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by jglenn21 on 1/12/2018, 6:32 pm

BTW I shoot the RWS 7gr pellets in mine

both the Diabolo basic and Meisterkugeln pellets
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Re: Pistol for training at home.

Post by zanemoseley on 1/12/2018, 6:47 pm

You guys are making this too difficult. When the Euro was weak I picked up a Steyr Evo10 from Krale in the Netherlands for about $1500 if I recall. I picked up a nice used scuba tank (higher 3100 psi if I recall) for $100 locally from a scuba operator. The included Steyr fill adapter fits a DIN valve I believe, I've run probably close to 2000 shots on the first fill, still not refilled it. Made my own trap with lights and cast my own lead backer, leads stops lead beautifully. I've put a Steyr picatinny adapter and Vortex Venom on it, my high score with a red dot is a 566.

I started with a FAS6004, decent pistol but not great. The trigger was a PITA to adjust and mine had the issue where it wouldn't fire some brands of pellets. I managed to shoot a 557 with the included irons so accuracy is good. I ended up selling to a guy on TT, he ended up using it to make one of the tutorials to fix them up. 

My advice for serious practice on a budget is a Daisy Avanti, then save $100 a month for a match AP, import one when the Euro weakens.

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