Ways of testing Ultra Dot

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Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by Virgil Kane on Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:23 am

Are there any ways of testing an Ultra Dot (besides changing it out for a different one) to see if my wondering shots are gun or dot related?

  A little info. The dot is mounted on a M-41 purchased new 11 years ago. Over the last 2 years I have noticed that out of a string of 10 shots that I am continually getting 2-3 shots that are not on call and will be in their own separate group away from the main group. Everything looks good at the break of the shot only to find out that those shots went into the 6 or 7 ring. There is no consistency to the flyers and separate groups, sometimes high, low, left right but always about 3 to 4 inches from the rest of the group but those flyers being in a group of their own away from the other shots. There is no consistency in regards to what shots in that string of 10 that this will happen, just a random event. 

I had heard that the hardware that holds the dot in the Ultra Dot can sometimes weaken. I don't know if that's true but if so how would one test for that if that is possible ?


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Re: Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by LenV on Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:41 am

I had something very similar happen. I didn't want to use loktite on the screws in the 41 because I might take it off for EIC matches. It turns out that those screws had loosened and the base had two positions it liked to shift between. Might not be your problem but that was mine..

Len
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Re: Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by mikemyers on Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:44 am

How about taking 20 shots using a good rest, so you know the gun won't move; if the same thing happens, then the Ultradot might need looking into.  Which model is it, by the way?

The lady at Ultradot (Katie??) is very helpful and friendly.  You might ask her.  She told me to follow a different set of instructions for mounting a Matchdot II rather than what came in the box.

Have you checked that all the screws are tight?
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Re: Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by Virgil Kane on Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:55 am

All screws are tight and it will do the same grouping from a rest.  Haven't put it in a Ransom Rest but did have it on a solid bench while resting it.
I will check the screws again. 
30mm Ultra Dot.

My quandary is this, is it the dot, ammo (CCI SV) or the gun itself ?  I have a couple of saved targets from years past that were 14 shot alibi's and still scored 98-99.  The scores over the last few years using this 41 have on a consistent decline while my other pistols (including the 45) have been on the rise. 

Virgil

Len,  I use mine also for EIC but I just loosen the Weaver rings and take the dot off. I leave the base on the 41 when I do this.

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Re: Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by jglenn21 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:15 am

just ask around your local BE shooters.. someone will have an extra dot you can swap out to see if the issue goes away. 

does it do the same thing with iron sights??
Is the problem isolated to a single magazine?



also check the barrel crown with a magnifier..


Last edited by jglenn21 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:17 am

jglenn21 wrote:just ask around your local BE shooters.. someone will have an extra dot you can swap out to see if the issue goes away. 

does it do the same thing with iron sights??

Or hand it to another known shooter to see if they have the same issue with your gun.
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Re: Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by Chris Miceli on Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:36 am

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:
jglenn21 wrote:just ask around your local BE shooters.. someone will have an extra dot you can swap out to see if the issue goes away. 

does it do the same thing with iron sights??

Or hand it to another known shooter to see if they have the same issue with your gun.
Let a hm or master shoot it and don’t tell me what the problem iS
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Re: Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by robert84010 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:45 am

shooting it out of a rest will not isolate anything since you are not using the dot to aim. doing a box test could show inconsistencies with the tracking but you are not saying it has tracking problems. Seems like something could be loose and moving during the string randomly.

Having someone else shoot it seems like the fastest test. Maybe use someone else's Model 41 and see if you throw shots with it?

You mention using it for EIC matches. Do you have the same 2-3 shots in a separate group?

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Re: Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by Virgil Kane on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:44 pm

Is the problem isolated to a single magazine?
No, random with the 6 different mags I have for the gun


You mention using it for EIC matches. Do you have the same 2-3 shots in a separate group?
Yes but somewhat harder to notice because I shoot better with a dot.

shooting it out of a rest will not isolate anything since you are not using the dot to aim.
I disagree but your statement is true, I have explained below.

OK here's another fly in the ointment.  I had a gunsmith put a liner in my barrel a few years ago. The gun shot good for a while but then started this wondering group that got worse with time.  I contacted the gunsmith and told him what was happening and at the time I thought that the liner might be coming loose. He said there was no way that was possible but send it back to him so he could take a look. He said he re-crowned the barrel (which by the way doesn't look like he touched it, I took photo's of the crown before and after) and he test shot it off hand (???) and said he could not get the gun to wonder with the groups but his eye sight wasn't good anymore so he really couldn't tell for sure.  All that took the gunsmith 3 week and now I still have the same problem.

I'm hoping it's not the barrel liner and would like to eliminate the cheaper parts first before I junk the barrel and try a new one.

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Re: Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by tray999 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:36 pm

Have you had the same results with a different brand of ammo?   I might try some ELEY tenex pistol ammo and see if you get the same results....  
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Re: Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by Wobbley on Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:38 pm

Sounds like a loose barrel liner to me.  If the group is just shifting but not changing in size it sounds like a loose barrel liner.
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Re: Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by Virgil Kane on Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:46 pm

Wobbley wrote:Sounds like a loose barrel liner to me.  If the group is just shifting but not changing in size it sounds like a loose barrel liner.

I'm going to keep an eye on that in the future. It's been suspect for a long time. It was done by a top gunsmith so I'm probably wrong in questioning his skills but stranger things have happened, sometimes gremlins get into things that are out of control to even the best of us.

I did a quick change to an old MatchDot that I have. Preliminary results seem promising with a couple nice tight 10 shot groups, no fliers yet but not a lot of shots taken.  I'll get a chance to test more over the weekend and see if the UltraDot went bad on me.  Still wish there was a way to test the dot in question. Suspect

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Re: Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by LenV on Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:02 pm

Well other than putting it on a different pistol and see if it does the same thing you might be able to test it with a good vice. Mount the dot on a rail you have lying around and clamp the rail in the vice. Now look thru the dot and see where the dot is. Ideally you would be able to place something in front of the scope to keep track of where it is centered. Now play "wipe out" on the vice with a pair of hammers and see if the dot moves. Moving the vice with the hammer doesn't count. Very Happy
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Re: Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by Virgil Kane on Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:13 pm

lol!

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Re: Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by mikemyers on Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:45 pm

I have an ADCO red dot sight I could send you, try it out, and see if the problem vanishes or remains, but from everything you've said here, it doesn't seem to be the sight.  If you want to try it, send me your address.  Two things may happen - the problem goes away, so you know it's your sight, or the problem remains, meaning it's something other than the sight that is causing the problem.
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Re: Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by Virgil Kane on Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:10 pm

Thanks for the generous offer Mike. I have about 6 UltraDots on various guns so I just swapped out one from a gun I don't use much.  Still have to see what happens when I shoot it more.

Thanks again.

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Re: Ways of testing Ultra Dot

Post by Bigtrout on Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:18 am

My 2 HD Micro's did the same thing Virgil describes from a manual rest after 1000 rounds of 9mm.  Both were deemed defective by the techs in Yankeetown.  They ended up giving me a new MD 30mm 6-Series which I have just started to evaluate between frigid days at the range.
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