That Damn Roll Trigger

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That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by daflorc on 2/18/2018, 2:27 pm

So, I'm a huge fan of KC Crawford's roll trigger kit. I have it on my ball gun, on my 45 wadcutter, on my nelson 22. 

Well it feels great on my Rock River wadcutter, feels great on my Les Baer ball gun. Feels crummy and short on my nelson 22 conversion. 

I was told by KC that the roll feels longer or shorter depending on the precise hole placement of the sear and hammer pin holes. OK, great - so I take the trigger kit out of the 1911 lower that it was in, order up a 1911 lower from Caspian, build out that lower, put KC's trigger kit in this new lower and...still a short, crisper feeling roll trigger than in my other guns. I can't afford to keep buying 1911 lowers until one of them has that nice long roll feel that my ball gun and wadcutter has. I really want that long roll in my 22 just like my other guns. 

Any ideas??

thanks,

Dave

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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by jglenn21 on 2/18/2018, 2:33 pm

Simply ask KC to take a look at your kit
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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by daflorc on 2/18/2018, 2:41 pm

jglenn21 wrote:Simply ask KC to take a look at your kit
Its just as simple as taking my 22 out of the mix in the middle of league season and shipping it out for a month or more...

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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by jglenn21 on 2/18/2018, 2:59 pm

Swap with it with one of your existing kits and see if the problems moves. If so then talk with KC again. 

Stuff happens..
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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by lyman1903 on 2/18/2018, 3:15 pm

or buy a RRA frame?

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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by james r chapman on 2/18/2018, 3:19 pm

Sounds like you need a longer sear,
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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by JKR on 2/18/2018, 4:46 pm

Are you running a light trigger pull on your 22? If so, try setting it at 3 1/2 pounds.

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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by Chris Miceli on 2/18/2018, 4:50 pm

it might be that lighter triggers don't feel like the roll as much.
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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by Jon Eulette on 2/18/2018, 5:42 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:it might be that lighter triggers don't feel like the roll as much.

+1

Jon
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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by jmdavis on 2/18/2018, 5:55 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:it might be that lighter triggers don't feel like the roll as much.
Yep. That might be why the National Champion shoots a 3.5lb trigger.
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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by daflorc on 2/18/2018, 6:12 pm

I've had the trigger pull set on this particular gun with KC's trigger kit from 2.25lbs to 4lbs, and it is a very short roll no matter the weight. But you're right, with the lighter pull weight the roll is far more nuanced. Going out and buying an RRA or les baer frame might be the only solution.

 I wonder - since the sear is a "true radius" sear, and KC's hammer is mated to that particular sear, would it even work if I did track down and try out a longer sear? Also - what companies even make a longer sear?

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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by daflorc on 2/18/2018, 6:14 pm

jglenn21 wrote:Swap with it with one of your existing kits and see if the problems moves. If so then talk with KC again. 

Stuff happens..
I have done this - then I asked KC, and he explained that the trigger will feel different on any gun I put it on, and that it depends on exactly how the sear and hammer pin holes were drilled. I don't want to bug the guy, and I know its not his sear/hammer that's at fault. But as it is the result is less than optimal. So, I either need to figure out a fix or find a lower with perfectly drilled holes.

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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by jmdavis on 2/18/2018, 6:33 pm

Have you tried one of your other triggers in the frame(s) in question? With an issue with two frames, I’m thinking the trigger is the problem. A lot of good guns are built on Caspian frames.
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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by daflorc on 2/18/2018, 7:03 pm

jmdavis wrote:Have you tried one of your other triggers in the frame(s) in question? With an issue with two frames, I’m thinking the trigger is the problem. A lot of good guns are built on Caspian frames.
I've put KC's trigger kits that are in my LB and RRA into both the caspian and the Ruger lower - with both trigger kits, what is a long and smooth trigger pull in the RRA and Les Baer is a short and almost unnoticeable trigger pull in the Ruger lower and caspian lower. I assumed the Ruger lower's holes may have been off, hence no roll, which is why I bought the Caspian lower, knowing Caspian makes some good stuff. Still a short crisp roll. And in all cases I adjusted the pull weight up and down - in at least the LB, the roll feels short when light, and long when 3-4lbs.

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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by kc.crawford.7 on 2/19/2018, 7:20 am

Caspian and Baer have the shortest roll from what I've seen.  Also throw Foster in there as well.  No two receivers are going to feel the same, it's been tried many times.  If you want to try another receiver I would suggest RRA, JEM or I could build a dedicated lower.  It's very challenging to try and get the same feel trigger on 2 guns much less three.  If I can help let me know.

And in the for what it's worth category.  I doubt seriously that any of the manufactures, today, have pin locations out of spec.  The problem is for everyone there is a +/- tolerance.  That tolerance stack is what can cause so many different feels from the same manufacturer and even more exaggerated when you swap with different manufactures.
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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on 2/19/2018, 7:55 am

daflorc wrote:I wonder - since the sear is a "true radius" sear, and KC's hammer is mated to that particular sear, would it even work if I did track down and try out a longer sear? Also - what companies even make a longer sear?

The longest I’ve found, but, please don’t take that as an absolute, was the Harrison Design HD-122-G Gunsmith’s Sear, however I would reccomend to work with KC before using any new parts.


https://shop.harrisoncustom.com/hd-122-g-non-prepped-sear


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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by jmdavis on 2/19/2018, 8:48 am

At least with the SA RO frame that I have the pull is longer. I had KC shorten it. But I also have it at 3.5lbs.
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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by jglenn21 on 2/19/2018, 9:45 am

think Jayhawk is right about the longest out there.. I use quit a bit of the STI sears and they easy will do a roll trigger at .404 length and on occasion .405.

think spec is somewhere around 403 - 405.   longer is typically better.
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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by daflorc on 2/19/2018, 11:43 am

kc.crawford.7 wrote:Caspian and Baer have the shortest roll from what I've seen.  Also throw Foster in there as well.  No two receivers are going to feel the same, it's been tried many times.  If you want to try another receiver I would suggest RRA, JEM or I could build a dedicated lower.  It's very challenging to try and get the same feel trigger on 2 guns much less three.  If I can help let me know.

And in the for what it's worth category.  I doubt seriously that any of the manufactures, today, have pin locations out of spec.  The problem is for everyone there is a +/- tolerance.  That tolerance stack is what can cause so many different feels from the same manufacturer and even more exaggerated when you swap with different manufactures.
Thanks for adding some additional insight into this - do you think fitting a Harrison Design HD-22-G gunsmith's sear with a true radius jig will solve my short roll issue? I'd rather not buy another lower receiver if I can help it. I don't need all 3 guns to feel the exact same, but I'd like the 22's to have at least some semblance of a med/long roll.

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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by kc.crawford.7 on 2/20/2018, 7:09 am

No if you use the TR Pro jig the "tallest" setting is .405.  So you'll cut your sear to .405
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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by daflorc on 2/20/2018, 12:35 pm

kc.crawford.7 wrote:No if you use the TR Pro jig the "tallest" setting is .405.  So you'll cut your sear to .405
You just saved me $120 on the jig then. Would I be able to order a longer sear from you with the TR cut? If so, just message you on your website?

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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by Tim:H11 on 2/20/2018, 2:13 pm

daflorc wrote:
kc.crawford.7 wrote:No if you use the TR Pro jig the "tallest" setting is .405.  So you'll cut your sear to .405
You just saved me $120 on the jig then. Would I be able to order a longer sear from you with the TR cut? If so, just message you on your website?

The KC roll trigger kit which comes with the True Radius Sear. You could buy just the sear it’s self from Harrison. I don’t know if KC sells just the sear.
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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by daflorc on 2/20/2018, 3:00 pm

Tim:H11 wrote:
daflorc wrote:
kc.crawford.7 wrote:No if you use the TR Pro jig the "tallest" setting is .405.  So you'll cut your sear to .405
You just saved me $120 on the jig then. Would I be able to order a longer sear from you with the TR cut? If so, just message you on your website?

The KC roll trigger kit which comes with the True Radius Sear. You could buy just the sear it’s self from Harrison. I don’t know if KC sells just the sear.
I have the KC roll trigger kit in the gun already, and the sear likely needs to be longer in order for the "roll" to work. So I'm asking KC if he can put a TR cut on a longer sear for me, so that his roll trigger kit works better in this particular gun.

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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by kc.crawford.7 on 2/20/2018, 4:45 pm

No I don't have the ability to cut a TR sear on a long gunsmiths sear.  The only real option I can see is ship me the pistol and let me see what I can do.
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Re: That Damn Roll Trigger

Post by daflorc on 2/20/2018, 10:21 pm

kc.crawford.7 wrote:No I don't have the ability to cut a TR sear on a long gunsmiths sear.  The only real option I can see is ship me the pistol and let me see what I can do.
Alright. I'll have to do that after league season is over. Thank you

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