Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

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Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by Taroman on 3/14/2018, 4:55 pm

My club usually (always always) runs its pistol matches at 25 yards.
Now they're having an EIC-type match.
Reading that many prefer the Zero/Nosler 185s for long line, so I stocked up on them.
See many references here to powder charges here, but seldom related to velocity.
As we all know, a given load will produce different velocities in different guns.
Just chronographed my first test loads with 4.5 grains of Bullseye.
In my CZ97b, it gave me 747 FPS with a SD of 11.3.
Is this in the preferred range?
I am somewhat time and resource constrained as I have only a few hundred JHPs and it's an hour each way to the club for testing.
So, having a ballpark velocity may save a lot of wasted time and bullets.

thanks.


Last edited by Taroman on 3/14/2018, 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : TYPO)
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by james r chapman on 3/14/2018, 5:25 pm

You have one of the favorite loads and are in the FPS range, now go shoot 'x's
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by Taroman on 3/14/2018, 5:27 pm

Thanks, I'll load up a batch and get to the club!
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by rreid on 3/14/2018, 8:41 pm

My most accurate load ran 770fps. I have Kart barrels.
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by Al on 3/15/2018, 3:40 am

I came into shooting Bullseye from a long range prairie dog shooting background. Lots of brass prep work, turning necks, weighing brass, uniforming primer pockets and flash holes, Wilson hand dies, solid benches and rifle rests, and high magnification optics. I spent a lot of time developing loads with low standard deviation and high velocity.

I took that mind set when I started developing 50 yard loads. I squandered a lot of components trying to get a low standard deviation, thinking that it made a difference in the group size. It sure does when trying to make a 800-1200 yard shot on a pasture rat. Not so much when trying to hit a 3"  10 ring at 50 yards standing with a pistol held with one hand. We don't need to achieve a certain power factor or minimum speed. We just want to shoot 10's & x's and paper doesn't move very fast. In our chosen discipline, speed means very little. The resulting group size does. Some of my best 45 loads had the highest velocity spreads. I have no idea what their speed is & don't care. I want to know how tight the 50 yard group is.

You are using a well proven load with top shelf components. Don't overthink this. There are lots of proven loads that have been used for decades with excellent results. Virtually all of them are on this site. If you have a good loading technique and are using good brass, just go ahead & shoot your 4.5 gr load. I'm thinking it will shoot to the capability of your 45.

Or...spend the time, expense, and wear on proving it to yourself. I had to, just wired that way I guess.

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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by Wobbley on 3/15/2018, 8:02 am

For reference, the 185 FMJ Federal Gold Medal Match ammo is listed at 775 fps.  In Handloader magazine a few months back they published a “Pet Loads” article and a majority of the accurate loads for the 185 JHP bullets tested were 850 fps or less.  Ken Waters in two articles in Handloader found that Bullseye was seldom the “best” powder for accuracy in his pistols with his guns preferring Red Dot, Green Dot, and 800X.  So if you want to experiment, try different powders.  I have good results with 700X, Bullseye and I’m going to try Red Dot as I have 6.5 pounds of it....
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by spursnguns on 3/15/2018, 9:41 am

Hello Taroman,

With that bullet, your target (no pun attended) velocity range should be 770 to 785 feet per second.  4.5 grains of Bullseye, a classic load, gives great accuracy in my guns and clocks in at 775 feet per second.  I prefer CLAYS only because it burns cleaner for me.

Jim
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by ruger15151 on 3/15/2018, 3:11 pm

james r chapman wrote:You have one of the favorite loads and are in the FPS range, now go shoot 'x's

What COL are you using for these loads?

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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by james r chapman on 3/15/2018, 4:27 pm

ruger15151 wrote:
james r chapman wrote:You have one of the favorite loads and are in the FPS range, now go shoot 'x's

What COL are you using for these loads?
1.230 for mine.
somewhere in that range should work.

one thing with consumer chrono's they don't work the same as most factory load manufacturers.
Get your self some federal 185 Gold medal match bullets and just try and match their velocity on your chronograph.
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by Boris_La on 3/15/2018, 4:38 pm

In my CZ97B Zero 185gr JHP loaded with 4.6gr BE shot with 730-760fps velocity. Most accurate combo with this powder. I mostly load Titegroup 4.5gr for matches. A bit more consistent and cleaner. No chrono data, but i suspect a similar velocity range or touch higher. COAL 1.210"

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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by Taroman on 3/15/2018, 5:30 pm

Mine are also 1.21".
Loaded test runs at 4.6 and 4.7 for another trial.
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on 3/15/2018, 9:02 pm

Don't worry about velocity, just the group.  At 25 yards, a certain forum wise man and gunsmith gave me his light load and its allowed me to go distinguished very quickly.

The primer is incorrectly listed below, it should say Federal LPP vice LRP

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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by Jack H on 3/16/2018, 12:31 am

Jayhawk
What how who came up with the theory on your average above of the N-S, E-W, and extreme spreads?
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by Chris Miceli on 3/16/2018, 12:59 am

Jack H wrote:Jayhawk
What how who came up with the theory on your average above of the N-S, E-W, and extreme spreads?
That’s a david sams test target
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by james r chapman on 3/16/2018, 4:58 am

Jack H wrote:Jayhawk
What how who came up with the theory on your average above of the N-S, E-W, and extreme spreads?
I suspect it takes in the rotational speed of the earth.

What a Face
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on 3/16/2018, 9:01 am

Just how Dave does his measurements.

H = horizontal
V = vertical 
ESV = Extreme Spread Value (center to center)


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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by james r chapman on 3/16/2018, 9:08 am

JayhawkNavy02 wrote:Just how Dave does his measurements.

H = horizontal
V = vertical 
ESV = Extreme Spread Value (center to center)


It's the total dim/3 that has us scratching our heads. I'd take ES 1.1 anytime! with I had one! lol!
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by Slartybartfast on 3/16/2018, 9:11 am

james r chapman wrote:Get your self some federal 185 Gold medal match bullets and just try and match their velocity on your chronograph.

What do you mean? 

To match the velocities on a box of ammunition, you need to start by using a setup that conforms to the same standards as the test equipment as the ammunition manufacturer.

Page 168 for 45 Automatic:
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

And for those interested, here's the Centerfire rifle and Rimfire documents as well:
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf
http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/Z299-1_ANSI-SAAMI_Rimfire.pdf
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by LenV on 3/16/2018, 9:17 am

I know James can answer for himself but that doesn't mean I won't put my .02 in. I believe James was trying to say that you can calibrate your equipment with a known proven round. You don't need to know what they did to test a round. All you need to do is test it yourself and see how your load compares. In your gun with your equipment. Your turn James.

Len
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by LenV on 3/16/2018, 9:30 am

james r chapman wrote:
Jack H wrote:Jayhawk
What how who came up with the theory on your average above of the N-S, E-W, and extreme spreads?
I suspect it takes in the rotational speed of the earth.

What a Face
You would need to know exactly where you were to figure that. Almost 1100 miles per hour at the equator but down to around 700 at the 45th parallel. Very Happy
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by Slartybartfast on 3/16/2018, 9:39 am

LenV wrote:I know James can answer for himself but that doesn't mean I won't put my .02 in. I believe James was trying to say that you can calibrate your equipment with a known proven round. You don't need to know what they did to test a round. All you need to do is test it yourself and see how your load compares. In your gun with your equipment. Your turn James.

Len
Yeah need to wait for James. But it was this phrase below that combined with a quick reading that confused me:
"one thing with consumer chrono's they don't work the same as most factory load manufacturers."
Hence my post that a good chrono, and the same test setup, should return similar results.

I'll agree that taking a box of good high quality ammo and then trying to match that velocity as a starting point seems to be a very reasonable and logical approach.
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by willnewton on 3/16/2018, 10:56 am

James is fairly correct in that replicating the environment of one testing area to another is difficult or near impossible.

As others have said, testing your ammo and their ammo under the same conditions such as back to back firing on your home range will give you the relative results you need.

I just wanted to give an example from my own experience.

ASYM .45 ammo says 775fps on the box.  On my chrono, that number is the slowest speed they will shoot, not the average.  So I test my handloads right then under the exact same chrono setup I tested the ASYM with. 

If needed, I go home and tweak the ammo.  For retesting, I reshoot the ASYM again to verify my baseline and chrono setup and follow it up ASAP with the reworked load.  This keeps it an apples to apples comparison, no matter what the box says.

Matching velocity of manufactured ammo is not hard. Even matching the SD is not bad if you are careful to craft good ammo.  Does matching high quality box ammo mean it is the best load for your gun? Not necessarily, but it gives you a good jumping off point and just to simply learn how small changes on the ammo can affect the results is a valuable lesson for the new reloader.
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by james r chapman on 4/24/2018, 7:28 pm

willnewton wrote:James is fairly correct in that replicating the environment of one testing area to another is difficult or near impossible.

As others have said, testing your ammo and their ammo under the same conditions such as back to back firing on your home range will give you the relative results you need.

I just wanted to give an example from my own experience.

ASYM .45 ammo says 775fps on the box.  On my chrono, that number is the slowest speed they will shoot, not the average.  So I test my handloads right then under the exact same chrono setup I tested the ASYM with. 

If needed, I go home and tweak the ammo.  For retesting, I reshoot the ASYM again to verify my baseline and chrono setup and follow it up ASAP with the reworked load.  This keeps it an apples to apples comparison, no matter what the box says.

Matching velocity of manufactured ammo is not hard. Even matching the SD is not bad if you are careful to craft good ammo.  Does matching high quality box ammo mean it is the best load for your gun? Not necessarily, but it gives you a good jumping off point and just to simply learn how small changes on the ammo can affect the results is a valuable lesson for the new reloader.

Exactly what I meant....
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by PMcfall on 4/24/2018, 7:38 pm

I have no clue what my velocities are even though I do own a chronograph.  I innocently load up test loads, go to the range and Ransom Rest them.  I then shoot the loads that my pistol shoots into small knots.
Phil
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Re: Preferred velocity range for 185 JHP long line loads?

Post by messenger on 4/24/2018, 8:59 pm

Boris_La wrote:In my CZ97B Zero 185gr JHP loaded with 4.6gr BE shot with 730-760fps velocity. Most accurate combo with this powder. I mostly load Titegroup 4.5gr for matches. A bit more consistent and cleaner. No chrono data, but i suspect a similar velocity range or touch higher. COAL 1.210"

I just crono'ed some Zero JHP's with 4.5gr Tight Group. My COL is 1.225. They averaged 744fps.

Bill
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