Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

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Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by mikemyers on 3/22/2018, 8:50 pm

I was looking for something on YouTube earlier today, and watched an interesting video by Brian Zins.  Before I clicked away from that, another video started, also by Brian.  I ended up watching quite a few of them, one after another.

I am puzzled by his video on "How to Develop a Shot Process in Bullseye Pistol".


My questions start at the 3 minute mark into the video.

First, maybe I've just missed it until now, but he specifically mentions resting his gun on a block of wood.  It's obvious in the video.  Is what he is doing, what all of you just do naturally?  It seems very natural in the video - almost obvious.  

Second, I have always been taught that your trigger finger is never on the trigger except while you are shooting.  Brian keeps his trigger finger there.  As he points out, if he did things differently, it would change his grip on the gun.  That too makes sense.
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Chris Miceli on 3/22/2018, 9:09 pm

i'm confused on what your question is ?
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by joy2shoot on 3/22/2018, 9:12 pm

The purpose of the rest is to help you maintain your grip even when the gun is at rest.  I tried a block of wood and clumsy me kept pushing it off the bench.  I now use a Caldwell rifle rest, as seen in the attached photo.
 
I know Brian keeps his finger on the trigger and I know why.  To maintain his grip.  But I am nowhere in the same league as Brian.  My finger is off the trigger when the gun is at rest.  If you keep your finger on the trigger, make sure the muzzle is not pointing at the bench, concrete, rocks, etc.  An indoor range I frequently shoot at does not allow finger on the trigger until the muzzle is pointed at the backstop.  If you shoot at a match that you are not familiar with, you may want to ask the match director when it is ok to put finger on the trigger.


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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Jon Eulette on 3/22/2018, 9:31 pm

Once I get my finger positioned it never comes off the trigger until I reload or put the gun down no longer gripping it. If you put your finger on and off it will probably not be consistent unless you train A LOT! Another reason some shooters rest their gun on a block is to prevent knocking/jarring it out of battery; leads to vertical stringing at 50 yds. Leaving finger on trigger is learned skill just like squeezing trigger when settling into the target. Through practice it becomes comfortable. Don't limit yourself. Gun is pointed in safe direction up & down range.
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Wobbley on 3/22/2018, 11:28 pm

The reason Brian leaves his finger in the trigger guard is to keep the position and his grip consistent.  The purpose of the block is to allow the gin to rest just below a 45deg “low ready” WITHOUT placing his hand and wrist in a position where the grip changes.
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by dronning on 3/22/2018, 11:58 pm

I made a block out of 2 pieces of 2" pink insulation foam.  I duct taped 2, 6x8 inch pieces together giving me a 4x6x8 inch block for different height benches.
- Dave
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by mikemyers on 3/23/2018, 12:35 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Once I get my finger positioned it never comes off the trigger until I reload or put the gun down no longer gripping it.........
What has been said about both the support block and the trigger finger sounds completely logical now, but I don't think I've ever noticed anyone using a support block this way, and until tonight I assumed that everyone removes their trigger finger until the gun is once again going to be aimed at the target.  

More things that an experienced coach would have taught me, which I never even considered I was doing incorrectly......
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Bullseye_Stan on 3/23/2018, 7:27 am

What Brian Zins demonstrates does not comply with the three golden rules of NRA pistol (firearm) safety.  Specifically, the second rule "ALWAYS Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Ready To Shoot".  Until the first ND occurs, everyone is fat, dumb, and happy. Building a shot process around non-compliance with a NRA safety golden rule is a bad shot process.

I think keeping the finger on the trigger is something to ignore in that video, IMO.  I compare Brian Zins 'finger always on the trigger' pistol shooting to Evil Knieval stunt riding: don't try that at your local range.  It's easy to hypothesize on the internet, but there are very good reasons for the NRA three golden rules that don't transfer over to internet message boards.

As far as the rest of the video, if a block helps to rest the pistol, then use it.  My take on the video (and, quite frankly I didn't pick up on the trigger finger) was to develop a set of consistent habits, which become a process. Repeating that process then becomes like driving your car to work everyday - in that some days you don't remember the trip because your were concentrating about something else (e.g. work): for pistol shooting the concentrating would be about shooting a 10 or a smooth trigger squeeze.  However, recognizing, believing, intellectualizing, understanding, and attempting are a small part of attaining the discipline to consistently perform such a process.  That takes dedication, persistence and hard work (which aren't mentioned in the video).

Edit: I cannot claim that anyone will certainly have a ND by keeping their finger on the trigger, but shooting a hole through the bench and creating a divot on the range floor is something people will notice.


Last edited by Bullseye_Stan on 3/23/2018, 8:46 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by mikemyers on 3/23/2018, 8:28 am

I go round and round thinking about this.  I'm sure Jon is right, you shouldn't disturb your grip between shots.  If one accepts that, and also accepts the rules of firearm safety, then the wood block or substitute is out.  For that matter, so is lowering your arm to the table, with the trigger finger still in place.  Seems to me that you can have one, or the other, but not both.

For me, if I'm lowering my hand to the table, my trigger finger is moving out of the trigger guard.  Seems like the lesser of two evils.
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by dronning on 3/23/2018, 8:48 am

Bullseye_Stan wrote:What Brian Zins demonstrates does not comply with the three golden rules of NRA pistol (firearm) safety.  Specifically, the second rule "ALWAYS Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Ready To Shoot".  Until the first ND occurs, everyone is fat, dumb, and happy. Building a shot process around non-compliance with a NRA safety golden rule is a bad shot process.

When the shooters are called to the line the better shooters are getting their grips and finger placement correct and dry firing.  I am ready to shoot when the load command is given.  I place the gun on the block with my finger on the trigger at this point and lift it to a low ready position when "the line is ready" command is given and raise to the target when the "ready on the left" command is given.  In 22 EIC matches you start from a low ready (gun off the bench at a 45 degree angle) waiting for the targets to turn before you can raise the gun.  This ready position is almost same position as resting the gun on the block.  I would bet everyone has their finger on the trigger during the low ready in a 22 EIC match.
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Wobbley on 3/23/2018, 9:00 am

IF you have trigger control, you can place your finger on the trigger as Brian does and NOT have an ND.  For the VAST majority of shooters removing the trigger finger from the trigger guard is required.  

But a bullseye Range is a slightly different environment.  The range is clear before you can handle the pistol.  The pistol should never be pointed in any direction other than down range EVER and is only loaded on command.  This is way different than most public ranges.
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Ed Hall on 3/23/2018, 9:47 am

Jon Eulette wrote:...
Another reason some shooters rest their gun on a block is to prevent knocking/jarring it out of battery; leads to vertical stringing at 50 yds.
...
Jon
I think some of you might not have caught this part in your zeal to hop in about finger placement.

If you place the front of the .45 directly on the bench, or similar, you are resting the lower front portion of the slide on a hard surface.  Any pressure can change the lockup that was achieved by the slide cycling.  I have even seen shooters intentionally pressing and releasing the gun against the table such that the slide moves back and forth as they are resting between shots.  I have to admit to not using a block, but I try to be aware that I don't place any stress on the pistol.

At the top level of competition, you must seek every advantage.  Eliminating the possibility of lockup change is one of the little things that just might give you that advantage.  I have won and lost by Xs in larger matches.  The little things sometimes make the difference.

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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by mikemyers on 3/23/2018, 10:09 am

Ed Hall wrote:.....I think some of you might not have caught this part in your zeal to hop in about finger placement.....
Worse than that.   I read it, but never thought of it in the way you just explained it.   I wondered what Jon meant, but never realized the real reason he said it.  Thanks!!

Isn't that one more reason to not use the block of wood (or whatever) ?
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by jglenn21 on 3/23/2018, 10:28 am

if you rest the 1911 on the trigger guard or dust cover then no issue... that's what the block is for

 I don't leave my finger one the trigger but I simply move it forward to the trigger guard and do not change my grip.
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by john bickar on 3/23/2018, 11:11 am

A folding adjustable guitar foot stand works great on lower benches.
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Chris Miceli on 3/23/2018, 11:59 am

john bickar wrote:A folding adjustable guitar foot stand works great on lower benches.
So ISSF of you
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by john bickar on 3/23/2018, 5:23 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
john bickar wrote:A folding adjustable guitar foot stand works great on lower benches.
So ISSF of you
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Steve B on 3/23/2018, 6:33 pm

Brian uses the block to maintain grip, wrist and elbow position after first gripping the pistol.  Then it's only a matter of picking the gun straight up onto the target without having to 'shift' anything which leads to inconsistency.

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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by willnewton on 3/23/2018, 7:27 pm

I believe if I remember from Zins class about his finger on the trigger vs. the NRA “golden rules”, the following anecdote.

The NRA says ALWAYS keep your finger of the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

Zins says when he is standing on the shooting line facing his target, the commands are in progress, and the gun is loaded, believe me, he is ready to shoot.

The end.

I also think there is also not a specific wording on trigger finger placement in the NRA rulebook. As long as you are allowed to handle your pistol, you can do what you like.  You are NOT free from consequences if you let one fly early or in an unsafe direction, etc.

I can’t remember, but I know how much folks on this forum like to find specifics in the NRA rulebook, so y’all go have a look for me, I’m wore out tonight.

You may need to follow this rule if directed to by the range SOP sheet, CRSO, RSO, or Match Director.

Although, I swear I remember Zins telling the story of being fussed at for his trigger finger, contesting the opinion and having to get out the NRA rule book that is always in his gear and ask them to show him the rule saying he was not allowed to have his finger on the trigger.  The rule was not to be found.

But Zins also said he nevers says any of the things people say he said in his workshops.

So, what is in the book?

Bickar & Miceli, you guys are having to much fun!  Go do your homework!  lol!
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by john bickar on 3/23/2018, 9:12 pm

“Do not put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot.”

“On the line (with five rounds) load”

The sentence immediately preceding this one is a command. It’s not a suggestion, it’s not something one should ponder along with the meaning of life, the universe, and everything. Once I hear that, I’m ready to go, and I’m responsible for everything that comes out of the muzzle. End of story.


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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by mikemyers on 3/23/2018, 9:13 pm

willnewton wrote:.....Zins says when he is standing on the shooting line facing his target, the commands are in progress, and the gun is loaded, believe me, he is ready to shoot......
By that line of reasoning, if I'm facing the target, my gun is loaded, and I pick it up off the table, to raise it up and fire, I too am "ready to shoot" according to what you wrote, so no reason not to have my finger on the trigger as the gun is being raised. 

(Not that I would do so, even if allowed.  I don't think you guys will ever come up with an answer that applies to everyone, all the time.)
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Chris Miceli on 3/23/2018, 9:52 pm

I have my finger on the trigger on the bench after the commands are givin. I even take up my pretravel and a portion of the weight .  I don’t shoot a 2lb trigger, and I know when and where the trigger will break.  I continue to press the trigger while I lower onto the target as well. I am comfortable in my abilities


Last edited by Chris Miceli on 3/23/2018, 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Jack H on 3/23/2018, 10:19 pm

5.3 Pistol Position - The gun held in a safe forward position
with the trigger fi nger outside the trigger guard.
(FIG – B – Approved Position)
5.4 to 5.11 (BLANK)
5.5 Firing Position - Standing, gun held in one hand only, the
other hand being used in no way to support the gun; all portions
of the shooter’s clothing, body and gun clear of artifi cial support.
Competitors will take their position at their numbered fi ring point
in such manner as not to interfere with competitors on either side.
No portion of the shooter’s body may rest upon or touch the ground
in advance of the fi ring line. (Fig. c)
(FIG – C – Correct Firing Position)
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Chris Miceli on 3/23/2018, 10:30 pm

Jack H wrote:5.3 Pistol Position - The gun held in a safe forward position
with the trigger fi nger outside the trigger guard.
(FIG – B – Approved Position)
5.4 to 5.11 (BLANK)
5.5 Firing Position - Standing, gun held in one hand only, the
other hand being used in no way to support the gun; all portions
of the shooter’s clothing, body and gun clear of artifi cial support.
Competitors will take their position at their numbered fi ring point
in such manner as not to interfere with competitors on either side.
No portion of the shooter’s body may rest upon or touch the ground
in advance of the fi ring line. (Fig. c)
(FIG – C – Correct Firing Position)
How do I fire the pistol with my finger outside the trigger guard ?
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by john bickar on 3/23/2018, 10:38 pm

willnewton wrote:Bickar & Miceli, you guys are having to much fun!  Go do your homework!  lol!

I'm too old and dumb for homework.

Miceli seems to like his Krelstein trophies; if he keeps working as hard as he has been, he might get as many as I have.

He has enough skill and motivation to do much better, though.
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

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