Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

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Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by mikemyers on 3/22/2018, 8:50 pm

First topic message reminder :

I was looking for something on YouTube earlier today, and watched an interesting video by Brian Zins.  Before I clicked away from that, another video started, also by Brian.  I ended up watching quite a few of them, one after another.

I am puzzled by his video on "How to Develop a Shot Process in Bullseye Pistol".


My questions start at the 3 minute mark into the video.

First, maybe I've just missed it until now, but he specifically mentions resting his gun on a block of wood.  It's obvious in the video.  Is what he is doing, what all of you just do naturally?  It seems very natural in the video - almost obvious.  

Second, I have always been taught that your trigger finger is never on the trigger except while you are shooting.  Brian keeps his trigger finger there.  As he points out, if he did things differently, it would change his grip on the gun.  That too makes sense.
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Ed Hall on 3/23/2018, 10:47 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:How do I fire the pistol with my finger outside the trigger guard ?
You need the figures to understand the text.  5.3 is a ready position with the pistol pointed downward, while 5.5 is the pistol aimed at the target.

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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Chris Miceli on 3/23/2018, 10:49 pm

john bickar wrote:
willnewton wrote:Bickar & Miceli, you guys are having to much fun!  Go do your homework!  lol!

I'm too old and dumb for homework.

Miceli seems to like his Krelstein trophies; if he keeps working as hard as he has been, he might get as many as I have.

He has enough skill and motivation to do much better, though.
I do it for the nra points
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Jon Eulette on 3/23/2018, 10:51 pm

john bickar wrote:“Do not put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot.”

“On the line (with five rounds) load”

The sentence immediately preceding this one is a command. It’s not a suggestion, it’s not something one should ponder along with the meaning of life, the universe, and everything. Once I hear that, I’m ready to go, and I’m responsible for everything that comes out of the muzzle. End of story.

+1

I once won a pistol at a match because a fellow competitor shot an early shot during SF.....lol. he owned up to it.
Jon
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Jack H on 3/23/2018, 10:54 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
Jack H wrote:5.3 Pistol Position - The gun held in a safe forward position
with the trigger fi nger outside the trigger guard.
(FIG – B – Approved Position)

How do I fire the pistol with my finger outside the trigger guard ?

Look in the book
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Chris Miceli on 3/23/2018, 11:00 pm

Jack H wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:
Jack H wrote:5.3 Pistol Position - The gun held in a safe forward position
with the trigger fi nger outside the trigger guard.
(FIG – B – Approved Position)

How do I fire the pistol with my finger outside the trigger guard ?

Look in the book
I did, they define 2 positions and give no commands to assume those positions
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by dronning on 3/23/2018, 11:16 pm

mikemyers wrote:
willnewton wrote:.....Zins says when he is standing on the shooting line facing his target, the commands are in progress, and the gun is loaded, believe me, he is ready to shoot......
By that line of reasoning, if I'm facing the target, my gun is loaded, and I pick it up off the table, to raise it up and fire, I too am "ready to shoot" according to what you wrote, so no reason not to have my finger on the trigger as the gun is being raised. 

(Not that I would do so, even if allowed.  I don't think you guys will ever come up with an answer that applies to everyone, all the time.)

Not Bullseye but watch the video from about 7:00 you will see the shooter manipulate the trigger before AND after loading it while the gun is still on the bench.  Triggers have 1000g minimum weight (2.2lbs) for 25m rapid fire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q-7aE2PNFM

If you don't have enough confidence in your abilities to feel safe putting your finger on the trigger before the rise then don't.  You should be dry firing to the point where you know EXACTLY how much pressure you can SAFELY put on the trigger before it releases.

It is still up to you to determine when after the load command you put your finger on the trigger. 
- Dave
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Chris Miceli on 3/23/2018, 11:18 pm

When I drop the slide on a loaded mag I have the trigger full depressed. It was recommend buy several gunsmiths as a safer way to load
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Jack H on 3/23/2018, 11:27 pm

I interpret "ready position" as any position with gun in hand, 45 degree down angle, resting on block, holding forward but not addressing target,... when not in firing position for a shot or dryfire
Sort of like "at ease" before and between shots
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Jack H on 3/23/2018, 11:39 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:When I drop the slide on a loaded mag I have the trigger full depressed. It was recommend buy several gunsmiths as a safer way to load

That probably violates 5.3.  Technically. 
If your muzzle discipline is correct, and your firearm operates safely, that probably is a safe method. 
Can this method be said to be of all kinds of semi-auto pistols?
Plus it supposedly saves trigger wear.
But rules are rules.
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by john bickar on 3/23/2018, 11:39 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:I do it for the nra points

"Lah-di-dah" says the fat cat sitting on his high horse living in his $3 million house paid for with NRA points.

I stick my tongue out at thee!
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Chris Miceli on 3/23/2018, 11:40 pm

Jack H wrote:I interpret "ready position" as any position with gun in hand, 45 degree down angle, resting on block, holding forward but not addressing target,... when not in firing position for a shot or dryfire
Sort of like "at ease" before and between shots
I interpret it as a position that is not commanded in the course of fire. Thus I would argue against anyone saying I can’t put my finger on trigger. Aren’t rulebooks fun?

Also at ease isn’t a command in the NRA precision pistol rulebook.
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by willnewton on 3/24/2018, 12:04 am

Chris Miceli wrote:How do I fire the pistol with my finger outside the trigger guard ?

This.

At no other point in the book could I find a reference to the trigger or the ready position other than 5.3.  The next rule is firing the pistol.

So the book is saying:

5.3 Get ready to shoot.

5.5 Shoot.

The “invisible step” 5.4 MUST involve placing the trigger finger in the pistol and yet, there is not a word about how the shooter is required to do that or timeline, etc. No words about waiting until the pistol is raised to touch the trigger.

NRA Pistol Rulebook 9.9 mentions assuming a position in the right place, but no trigger.  Then 10.1 through 10.7- No trigger rules there either.

10.1.4 deals with injury and 14.5 and 14.6 deal with early shot penalties.  

I’m not trying to be argumentative.  I just think it is kind of an interesting detail.

Now go find the section about required hearing protection!
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Chris Miceli on 3/24/2018, 12:13 am

I willnewton wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:How do I fire the pistol with my finger outside the trigger guard ?

This.

At no other point in the book could I find a reference to the trigger or the ready position other than 5.3.  The next rule is firing the pistol.

So the book is saying:

5.3 Get ready to shoot.

5.5 Shoot.

The “invisible step” 5.4 MUST involve placing the trigger finger in the pistol and yet, there is not a word about how the shooter is required to do that or timeline, etc. No words about waiting until the pistol is raised to touch the trigger.

NRA Pistol Rulebook 9.9 mentions assuming a position in the right place, but no trigger.  Then 10.1 through 10.7- No trigger rules there either.

10.1.4 deals with injury and 14.5 and 14.6 deal with early shot penalties.  

I’m not trying to be argumentative.  I just think it is kind of an interesting detail.

Now go find the section about required hearing protection!
I noticed that too Will, but you did all the work for everyone Sad  they were suppose to find it.

In the commands you are to come to target after ready on the right


Last edited by Chris Miceli on 3/24/2018, 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Jack H on 3/24/2018, 1:12 am

The commands "Is the line ready?" and "The line is ready" makes me assume all competitors are in a ready position, any ready position.  Guns are loaded at this point.  I would think the meaning of the rule is the trigger finger may go into the trigger guard at the end of being "ready" and transitioning to "firing position"

"The Range Officer then commands, “READY ON THE RIGHT.
READY ON THE LEFT.” Competitors may point their guns to
ward the target after the command, “Ready on the right.
” The
Range Officer will then command, “READY ON THE FIRING
LINE.” In approximately 3 seconds the targets will be exposed, or
the signal to commence firing will be given." 

Despite all this, I have usually kept my finger in but not pressuring between SF shots.  Even during a short "the line is not ready" moment.
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Chris Miceli on 3/24/2018, 8:30 am

You miss quoted the rule book. The phrase is is the line ready? The line caller is asking if everyone is ready.   The ready position is used after a malfunction See rule 10.10
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

Post by Dr.Don on 3/24/2018, 8:51 am

Most of my training is at a local indoor range which is open to the public.  It is a very well done operation and the range officers are very good with good attitudes as well.  I think I'm the only bullseye shooter any of them have ever seen there in the past several years, and I'm there a lot.  Because of their experience with me I get more latitude than the average guy who walks in off the street.  But not as regards the "finger off the trigger" rule.  The finger has to be off the trigger when the gun is lowered.  They have had at least one shot into the steel bench top when someone violated this.  So I have had to make "move finger to trigger" part of my shot process.  I've been doing it for years now and it's become automatic.  It's not ideal, but it's what I have to do to shoot there.  And I understand their reasoning:  If they let me violate this and others see me doing it, they will do the same.


Last edited by Dr.Don on 3/24/2018, 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)
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Re: Two questions about a Brian Zins YouTube video.

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