S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

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S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

Post by Tim:H11 on 4/17/2018, 10:07 pm

I can’t temember if I’ve asked this before or if someone else has so here we go:

I’ve heard that it’s not safe to fire a bunch of high velocity 22 Ammo in a S&W Model 41. The fear is that the frame could crack. Is this true?
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Re: S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

Post by L Valdez on 4/17/2018, 11:08 pm

Frame cracking was predominately with the Hi-Standards. I never shot HV in my 41, but have seen others shooting HV ammo with their model 41's regularly at the range without any damage to their frames.

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Re: S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

Post by LenV on 4/17/2018, 11:32 pm

Cracked frame? No. Can ruin the bolt? Yes. I fired a Bazillion high power rounds (CCI Mini Mag, Winchester Super) with zero problems then one day it just quit working. It quit working at a match of course. I fired it enough I flattened the face of the bolt. It turns out the match ammo had a thinner rim and firing pin was not making good contact. It took a while to figure it out but replacing the bolt and leaving the high power alone has solved the problem....     I guess I never throw anything away.

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Re: S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

Post by Chris Miceli on 4/18/2018, 6:29 am

I recommend firing a few standard velocity and "high velocity" through a chrono and make your decision based of that. Wikipedia says these are the ranges.

The variety of .22 LR loads are often divided into four distinct categories, based on nominal velocity:

  • Subsonic, which also includes "target" or "match" loads, at nominal speeds below 1100 feet (335 meters) per second.

  • Standard-velocity: 1120–1135 feet (340–345 meters) per second.

  • High-velocity: 1200–1310 feet (365–400 meters) per second.

  • Hyper-velocity, or Ultra-velocity: over 1400 feet (425 meters) per second.

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Re: S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

Post by Bullseye_Stan on 4/18/2018, 6:46 am

I've never heard or read about cracking a S&W 41 frame from shooting HV ammo.  Hammerli and High Standard have stories and I've seen photos.  Not to digress, but the S&W M41 design is from the same 'ancestry' as some of the Russian/Soviet designs (or so I've read).  The Hammerli 208 is another similar design to the S&W 41 along with the IZH-35M and AW93. 

For the 208, the slide bangs (impacts) the frame below the barrel and eventually causes a fatigue crack with HV ammo or a weak recoil spring.  A similar effect happens with the High Standards using HV ammo, in that the slide bangs on a stop in the frame and will crack the frame near the magazine.  This post has some details (from a diversion of the main topic) on frame cracking: http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t8662-hammerli-208s-vs-marvel-conversion

There are slide buffers for the S&W M41 which are intended to go between the slide and the frame to soften any impact from the slide.  This buffer will (theoretically) prevent any slide or frame cracking.  I don't have a link, but have seen several for sale online.  They look similar to the buffer used in a Nelson conversion.

I use a buffer for my .45, because it's inexpensive and easy to get.  I've not used a buffer for my S&W 41.  I don't shoot HV ammo in my 41, but if I did that alot might consider getting one of the plastic slide buffers.  But, I'm not sure it's needed or would help with the bolt issue mentioned by Len.


As a note: if the S&W 41 had a more adjustable trigger, it would be world class - not that it's too shabby as is.  It's an all steel pistol and very durable.

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Re: S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

Post by Chris Miceli on 4/18/2018, 6:53 am

Bullseye_Stan wrote:I've never heard or read about cracking a S&W 41 frame from shooting HV ammo.  Hammerli and High Standard have stories and I've seen photos.  Not to digress, but the S&W M41 design is from the same 'ancestry' as some of the Russian/Soviet designs (or so I've read).  The Hammerli 208 is another similar design to the S&W 41 along with the IZH-35M and AW93. 

For the 208, the slide bangs (impacts) the frame below the barrel and eventually causes a fatigue crack with HV ammo or a weak recoil spring.  A similar effect happens with the High Standards using HV ammo, in that the slide bangs on a stop in the frame and will crack the frame near the magazine.  This post has some details (from a diversion of the main topic) on frame cracking: http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t8662-hammerli-208s-vs-marvel-conversion

There are slide buffers for the S&W M41 which are intended to go between the slide and the frame to soften any impact from the slide.  This buffer will (theoretically) prevent any slide or frame cracking.  I don't have a link, but have seen several for sale online.  They look similar to the buffer used in a Nelson conversion.

I use a buffer for my .45, because it's inexpensive and easy to get.  I've not used a buffer for my S&W 41.  I don't shoot HV ammo in my 41, but if I did that alot might consider getting one of the plastic slide buffers.  But, I'm not sure it's needed or would help with the bolt issue mentioned by Len.


As a note: if the S&W 41 had a more adjustable trigger, it would be world class - not that it's too shabby as is.  It's an all steel pistol and very durable.

http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t4298-smith-wesson-41-common-repairs
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Re: S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

Post by Slartybartfast on 4/18/2018, 9:10 am

Chris Miceli wrote:I recommend firing a few standard velocity and "high velocity" through a chrono and make your decision based of that. Wikipedia says these are the ranges.

The variety of .22 LR loads are often divided into four distinct categories, based on nominal velocity:

  • Subsonic, which also includes "target" or "match" loads, at nominal speeds below 1100 feet (335 meters) per second.

  • Standard-velocity: 1120–1135 feet (340–345 meters) per second.

  • High-velocity: 1200–1310 feet (365–400 meters) per second.

  • Hyper-velocity, or Ultra-velocity: over 1400 feet (425 meters) per second.


Had a passing interest in how ammunition was tested and rated, so looked into the SAAMI test procedures.
And if I understand the testing/qualification process for ammunition correctly, those velocities are from ammunition fired through a 24 inch barrel and recorded at 15 feet.
The standards document for rimfire: http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/Z299-1_ANSI-SAAMI_Rimfire.pdf
One company with a range of universal receivers and test barrels: https://www.wisemanballistics.com/product/
Not having access to a chronograph, it has got me wondering what velocities the various LR ammo is attaining out of my pistols.
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Re: S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

Post by gregbenner on 4/18/2018, 10:28 am

It seems to be "common knowledge" that 41s were designed for standards velocity (i.e. recoil springs, etc). Lots and lots of threads, particularly on the Rimfire Forum. When I first purchased a 41, I switched from HV to SV, but partially (mostly?) because I also read that SV was considered a bit more accurate for bullseye.  I don't remember seeing much about cracked framed though. Usually, the suggestion is to use a stronger recoil spring if you are going to shoot HV regularly. An illustrative thread from RFC.  

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=597792

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Re: S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

Post by Jack H on 4/18/2018, 12:39 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:I recommend firing a few standard velocity and "high velocity" through a chrono and make your decision based of that. Wikipedia says these are the ranges.

The variety of .22 LR loads are often divided into four distinct categories, based on nominal velocity:

  • Subsonic, which also includes "target" or "match" loads, at nominal speeds below 1100 feet (335 meters) per second.

  • Standard-velocity: 1120–1135 feet (340–345 meters) per second.

  • High-velocity: 1200–1310 feet (365–400 meters) per second.

  • Hyper-velocity, or Ultra-velocity: over 1400 feet (425 meters) per second.



Actual velocity (averages per run) from a Marvel upper.  most came off the pistol between 930fps and 1030fps.  Interesting the weak cycling SK has near the same fps as CCI which cycles fine. 

711 1022fps sd8, 1010fps sd10
900B 958 7, 961 7
UM1 1037 15, 1026 12
Aguila SV 1013 20, 1020 11
PMC SM 943 24, 938 35
T22 1060 5, 1052 6
RWS SM 927 25, 903 38, 921 19
Rem Tgt* 1033 24, 999 16, 1022 19
Rem Tgt** 1025 18, 1017 11
SK Std Plus 930 8, 934 10, 922 4
Wolf MT 972 26, 980 10, 972 28
Wolf again 981 20
CCI SV^ 927 8, 929 22
CCI SV^^ 932 17, 942 19
Eley P Std 959 12, 962 11 (aqua)
Eley Tgt P 950 10, 944 2 (yellow)
Eley P Xtra 929 18, 931 9 (lt blue)
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Re: S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

Post by cdrt on 4/18/2018, 2:00 pm

Just a side note: You don't have to shoot high velocity stuff to crack the frame on a High Standard.  I only shot SV stuff out of my Victor and the frame still cracked.  Of course, that was after about 50,000 rounds.  Smile
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Re: S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

Post by Guntrainer on 4/19/2018, 12:51 am

Cracked a slide on a 46 when I was in High School. Factory replaced it under warranty. No more HV for me. I use a Wolff XP spring and a buffer on the 41.

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Re: S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

Post by ruzneb on 4/19/2018, 3:50 pm

What's the benefit of using HV ammo in a pistol specifically designed to shoot paper targets? When the 41 came on the market, HV .22 ammo didn't exist.

The model 41 isn't based on Russian models. It's based on the 1930s era Walther Olympia Model Target Pistol.

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Re: S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

Post by LenV on 4/19/2018, 4:12 pm

ruzneb wrote:What's the benefit of using HV ammo in a pistol specifically designed to shoot paper targets? When the 41 came on the market, HV .22 ammo didn't exist.

The model 41 isn't based on Russian models. It's based on the 1930s era Walther Olympia Model Target Pistol.
 I don't know why other would use HV ammo in a 41 but I certainly had my reasons. I carried my 41 in a holster for 30 years. HV works in a snow storm and rain. SV doesn't. 

Len
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Re: S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

Post by Bullseye_Stan on 4/19/2018, 4:18 pm

Hey! Smile   According to this guy's website (which has not been accuracy verified), the Hammerli 208 was also based on the Walther Olympia Model Target Pistol! http://www.australiancynic.com/208.htm

I can see someone who shoots a .45 not minding having a bit more recoil from their .22.  CCI, Federal, Peters (a Remington brand) ammo were available as High Velocity and High Power in the 1930's.  Back then, a .22 round cost about $0.01 and I remember my grandfather grumbled about spending that amount per shot - every shot count (literally).  FWIW, here is a link to some old .22 ammo:  http://www.sportingcollectibles.com/22_ammunition.html

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Re: S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

Post by Wobbley on 4/19/2018, 7:25 pm

ruzneb wrote:What's the benefit of using HV ammo in a pistol specifically designed to shoot paper targets? When the 41 came on the market, HV .22 ammo didn't exist.

The model 41 isn't based on Russian models. It's based on the 1930s era Walther Olympia Model Target Pistol.

I know High Velocity 22ammo was around in the 1930s and 1940s. So it did exist before the 41.

http://cartridgecollectors.org/content/catalogs/REMINGTON/1937-Rem-DuPont-Kleankote%2022s%20Flyer.pdf From 1937
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Re: S&W Mod 41 and High Velocity?

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