Problem with reloaded ammo.

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Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by mikemyers on 4/30/2018, 5:00 pm

I loaded up 25 rounds of ammo to check if I'm doing things properly.  As per an earlier thread, the info is:


  • Magnus #801 bullets, 45-185 grain, BNWC .452 did.
  • 4 grains Bullseye
  • OAL 1.130"
  • Crimp: 0.469



The good news is that when the ammo shoots, it's better than anything I can remember testing from the past.  Here's a photo - shot with the heel of the gun on a sandbag, and for one shot I could feel something move slightly, which explains the bad shot - very happy so far:




So far so good, but here's the problem.  While the gun shoots fine when I put one cartridge in the magazine, when I put more than one in, the second round will not fire.  The trigger behaves as if the grip safety is on - the trigger moves so far, and then won't go any further.  I did this several times, and it's very repeatable.  Here are two rounds after ejecting them from the gun:




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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by james r chapman on 4/30/2018, 5:07 pm

Looks like rifling! are you sure of the oal?
Im guessing that the bullet sticks out too far, isn't chambering all the way, preventing the slide from coming all the way forward, not allowing the disconnect to work properly.
Just my guess...
or, it's short chambered...
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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by Aprilian on 4/30/2018, 5:10 pm

Definitely shaving the bullet - need to open up the case more or find out why your seating die is partially crimping before the bullet is fully seated.   Look at your first picture - I can see the lead ring pushed up by the case and then crimped back down to the bullet.   I've loaded a lot of 801's and seen that when setting up my Redding dies with mixed brass.   I have had to clean a lot by hand to get that ring off before figuring out the right die settings. 

Did you measure the actual OD of the bullets?  As I mentioned in the previous thread, I have three boxes that measure .453 and they need a totally different die set up in order to not shave the upper driving band.

How does your barrel look?  That much loose lead may have consequences.
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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by mikemyers on 4/30/2018, 5:29 pm

james r chapman wrote:Looks like rifling! are you sure of the oal?
Im guessing that the bullet sticks out too far, isn't chambering all the way, preventing the slide from coming all the way forward, not allowing the disconnect to work properly.
Just my guess...
or, it's short chambered...
I just checked one now; yes, a bit long - 0.1420 - I thought I set it properly.  Will fix.

Here's a test bullet from when I was starting to set the crimp.  No primer or powder - it didn't go through the gun:

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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by dronning on 4/30/2018, 5:43 pm

I agree the ring of lead means something isn't set right.  Are you belling the case enough?  Also are you seating and crimping with the same die?  If possible seat and crimp separately.

Those do look like rifling marks.  Did you do a drop test with your barrel removed from the gun to see if they seat properly?  That lead ring will also keep the round from going into battery.  Chances are you have a buildup of lead in the chamber up against the lands.
- Dave

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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by Chris Miceli on 4/30/2018, 6:07 pm

mikemyers wrote:
james r chapman wrote:Looks like rifling! are you sure of the oal?
Im guessing that the bullet sticks out too far, isn't chambering all the way, preventing the slide from coming all the way forward, not allowing the disconnect to work properly.
Just my guess...
or, it's short chambered...
I just checked one now; yes, a bit long - 0.1420 - I thought I set it properly.  Will fix.

Here's a test bullet from when I was starting to set the crimp.  No primer or powder - it didn't go through the gun:

looks like too much shoulder sticking out and under expanded case, measure your casemouth to the start of the shoulder of the bullet(doesn't have to be the .001) also measure your brass inside diameter after expanding and belling before a bullet goes in.
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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by mikemyers on 4/30/2018, 6:08 pm

dronning wrote:I agree the ring of lead means something isn't set right.  Are you belling the case enough?  Also are you seating and crimping with the same die?  If possible seat and crimp separately.

Those do look like rifling marks.  Did you do a drop test with your barrel removed from the gun to see if they seat properly?  That lead ring will also keep the round from going into battery.  Chances are you have a buildup of lead in the chamber up against the lands.
- Dave
Belling the case - maybe not.  The advice was to do no more than enough to drop the case "into" she shell.  I will correct that tonight.

Seating and crimping with same die - yes.   I will change that tonight, seat in the press, and crimp on my RCBS Big Max press.  Will try that.

I didn't do a drop test as you describe - I only tested this in the Lyman case gage. 

Will do those first, then check the barrel.  The previous rounds I got from the reloader at the club did not have this problem, so it's likely something I'm doing wrong now, but I can check everything else too.
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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by mikemyers on 4/30/2018, 6:10 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:looks like too much shoulder sticking out and under expanded case, measure your casemouth to the start of the shoulder of the bullet(doesn't have to be the .001) also measure your brass inside diameter after expanding and belling before a bullet goes in.
Chris, will do that also.
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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by james r chapman on 4/30/2018, 6:14 pm

Mike, with lead bullets the case needs to have  a slight, but distinctive belling at the mouth.
Ideally the bullet would hand seat part way down into the case.
You would seat your bullet to the 1.130 using the seating die, and crimp using a separate die to at minimum remove the belling. If your using a taper die, (which you should), you can see a distinctive taper at the mouth of the case after crimping.
Somewhere Len had a good example of this.
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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by james r chapman on 4/30/2018, 6:19 pm

borrowed this from Len...

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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by mikemyers on 4/30/2018, 6:27 pm

Lots of measurements, all done with my digital calipers.

Diameter of bottom of #801 bullet:    0.4515
Case ID after re-sizing, as measured with my calipers:  0.4380 min, 0.4415 max
Calse length:       0.8945
Maximum diameter of case after expanding:   0.4485
Distance from case mouth to start of belled area:    0.0700
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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by mikemyers on 4/30/2018, 6:31 pm

Jim, I am ready to change the dies so the seater/crimper die only seats.  

Before I do that, do I need more "bell". I set it for the least amount to let the bullet drop a tiny bit "into" the case.  Should I open up my "bell" some more?


I'd suggest belling the mouth of your case to .475 O.D, just enough to let the base of the bullet start into the case.

I'd recheck your O.D of the case dimension. should be in the .470'ish range.
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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by Chris Miceli on 4/30/2018, 6:40 pm

mikemyers wrote:Lots of measurements, all done with my digital calipers.

Diameter of bottom of #801 bullet:    0.4515
Case ID after re-sizing, as measured with my calipers:  0.4380 min, 0.4415 max
Calse length:       0.8945
Maximum diameter of case after expanding:   0.4485
Distance from case mouth to start of belled area:    0.0700

My recommendations is a expander that expanders more a final ID of case to .451 .You cramming a .4515 bullet into a case that .4485 right now. I also recommend setting your bullets farther into the case. You should take your finger nail to the case mouth and it should be close to the edge where it goes from straight to contour on the bullet. Seat and crimp to different dies always. Throw away your dies that seat and crimp at the same time or give them to your worst enemy


Last edited by Chris Miceli on 4/30/2018, 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by james r chapman on 4/30/2018, 6:42 pm

Chris is over zealous, lol.
Use your seat/crimp die to do one or the other.
but not both!
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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by mikemyers on 4/30/2018, 6:53 pm

Am doing it your way.  Nice to have lots of old dies.  I removed the lock-out die, and am now installing a LYMAN 45 ACP SEAT DIE, which will be set for 1.130" cartridge length.  Back soon.
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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by james r chapman on 4/30/2018, 7:51 pm

found a pic for you mike!
Federal GM45B on left, Magnus on right.

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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by mikemyers on 4/30/2018, 8:06 pm

Thanks, Jim.  I am closer.

Removed the lockout die, and started to lower the seater die into station #4.

As per the RCBS manual, raised the shell plate all the way with a case in station #4.

Screwed down the die, as far as it would go, until the inside of the die contacted the top of the case.

I then turned the die one full turn out, raising the die that much, and locked everything in place.

I have two of the part that goes into the die, to push down the bullet.  Both have a "curved" inner face to rest against the bullet.  Apparently they are identical.  Tried one, then the other.  I'm looking to see if I have a "flat" one....  Which is appropriate for this bullet?

I screwed the adjuster down until it touched the bullet, then gradually screwed it further in.
When it was in as much as possible, the cartridge length was down to 1.1360" long.  Is this OK?

Here is what the bullet looks like - very much like the photo you posted, but it's not going to look the same unless I seat it deeper??

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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by Chris Miceli on 4/30/2018, 8:31 pm

Doesn’t look like a fingernails worth
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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by dronning on 4/30/2018, 8:35 pm

mikemyers wrote:I screwed the adjuster down until it touched the bullet, then gradually screwed it further in.
When it was in as much as possible, the cartridge length was down to 1.1360" long.  Is this OK?

Here is what the bullet looks like - very much like the photo you posted, but it's not going to look the same unless I seat it deeper??
the cartridge length was down to 1.1360" long.  Is this OK?  No one could answer that for you, you have to test it in your barrel, it is very possible you have a short chamber. The amount of bullet exposed is what is important.  Also make sure you have cleaned your barrel, you may have a build up of lead rings left from your earlier loads.


Make this distance look more like the bullets pictured above.
- Dave

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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by LenV on 4/30/2018, 8:38 pm

And case still looks flared. I don't see any crimp at all.
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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by mikemyers on 4/30/2018, 9:00 pm

LenV, one thing at a time.   I did get it to look like what you guys suggest, using the RCBS seater/crimper die.  I raised the die one turn up so the crimper doesn't touch the case.  I'll install a different crimper die in station #5 once the seating seems reasonable.  I'll also test in my barrel.

Cartridge length is now 1.1230", allowing it to pass the "fingernail test".   :-)

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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by Chris Miceli on 4/30/2018, 9:04 pm

mikemyers wrote:LenV, one thing at a time.   I did get it to look like what you guys suggest, using the RCBS seater/crimper die.  I raised the die one turn up so the crimper doesn't touch the case.  I'll install a different crimper die in station #5 once the seating seems reasonable.  I'll also test in my barrel.

Cartridge length is now 1.1230", allowing it to pass the "fingernail test".   :-)


Looks more better. Now just add a taper crimp
Crimp
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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by mikemyers on 4/30/2018, 9:36 pm

Coming up next.  I'm very slow.  Trying to remember, to understand, and to get it to all make sense to me, and the scary thing is that it mostly is.  I'll add crimp until it reaches the diameter that was originally suggested, 0.469" die.
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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by mikemyers on 4/30/2018, 10:35 pm

Found my taper crimp, adjusted it until it started touching the shell, and in 1/8 turn increments kept lowering the die until the crimp size was down to 0.469" dia.  I need to buy more of the S&W hex nuts and wrench, so I can properly tighten the dies on the die plate.  Not much space.

I will run off 20 rounds, checking writing down OAL and crimp for each.  


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Re: Problem with reloaded ammo.

Post by dronning on 4/30/2018, 11:54 pm

Looks like you are headed in the right direction.  Even though you are using a case gauge do the barrel drop test or "plunk" test (the noise the round should make as it falls into the chamber). 

Crimp, if you read through the threads you will find different crimp #'s for different bullet gun combo's,  .463-.471 are common and if you are not getting good results at 50yd adjusting the crimp may tighten the group up.  

FYI - a 15yd group isn't a good indication of what will happen at the 50yd line. 
- Dave


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