Marvel or Nelson???

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Marvel or Nelson???

Post by SW-52 on Wed May 02, 2018 10:26 am

Hi People,i Have a 2006 Marvel conversion with .647" group test buttom at 50 yards and my future project is a dedicated lower for a conversion,because weight,grip angle and same trigger of 1911. my marvel is no lockback version and i think is no dry fire safe. i want to know nelson is on pair of marvel in accuracy in bullseye shooting.thanks!
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by Chris Miceli on Wed May 02, 2018 10:28 am

I own a marvel and a nelson and neither have a factory barrel. The Nelson conversion is the most recent design from bob (that i know of). The nelson is dry fire safe and has a steel pin in the  aluminum slide for the slide lock back. The marvel is not dry fire safe and has this aluminum block built into the aluminum slide for the lockback model. The Nelson comes with a steel rib. The marvel comes with a aluminum with the option to upgrade to the steel version.  The nelson mags lock back the conversion. The marvel mags you have to buy the modified GSG mags (they insert some steel into the follower to press up on the slide lock).  Marvel sells a steel slide which Nelson does not. Marvel sells a combo rib which Nelson does not.

Marvel sends a test button of a 5 shot group, Nelson sends no test group.
Neither brand will tell you what brand of barrel they are using.

Since marvel comes with a test target claiming accuracy i put it to the test and couldn't replicate it with better ammo than was tested. 

I rebarreled my marvel and nelson to get the accuracy i wanted. My marvel is a steel slide version with optional heavy scope rib and aimpoint 9000, colt ace magazines modified to press the slide lock up on last shot. My nelson i use a custom milled rib from larry for my aimpoint micro and plastic magazines.

Both run flawlessly but i enjoy the recoil impulse of the steel slide marvel.

The marvel has more options like lock back vs not lock back, steel slide vs aluminum.
The marvel has better iron sights i think


Last edited by Chris Miceli on Wed May 02, 2018 10:49 am; edited 5 times in total
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by SW-52 on Wed May 02, 2018 10:38 am

Chris Miceli wrote:I own a marvel and a nelson and neither have a factory barrel.
Customs???
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed May 02, 2018 10:58 am

Your older 06 Marvrl should be a shooter. They used Shilen barrels back then. I’m of the opinion they are dry fire safe. I have replaced 2 firing pins from dry firing too much; they break from inertia because I don’t use a plug for dry firing. I don’t care if they break, it comes with territory;)
Jon
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by Chris Miceli on Wed May 02, 2018 11:32 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Your older 06 Marvrl should be a shooter. They used Shilen barrels back then. I’m of the opinion they are dry fire safe. I have replaced 2 firing pins from dry firing too much; they break from inertia because I don’t use a plug for dry firing. I don’t care if they break, it comes with territory;)
Jon
Well i got them to admit that they are not Mossberg barrels which Advantage Arms was kind enough to tell me they use.

Other differences between the marvel and nelson that may or may not add up to anything.

Marvel uses a wide extractor than the nelson just a few thousandths.
Marvel ribs attach to the barrel Nelson ribs attach to the barrel block and barrel. 
For mounting the ribs Marvel uses cap style screws Nelson uses machine style screws.
Marvel barrels have different drill holes for iron sights vs scope rib ( all holes are present on the barrel) The nelson uses the same 2 for either rib.
The Marvel block where the slide stop pin passes through is more square than the nelson
The Marvel barrel is about a quarter inch longer than the Nelson when you compare non threaded barrels.
They have different serration styles on the front and back of the slide. 
The socket you need to tighten the guide rod are different sizes cant really use one tool for the other or you'll strip the head.
If i remember correctly the marvel and nelson use a different tpi for the guide rod. 

Marvel uses a right hand thread into the barrel block with locktite, Nelson uses left hand threads with no loctite

Took some measurements 
Complete slides from Nelson or Marvel (Alum version) pretty much 4.7oz
Marvel Steel slide 5.8oz
Marvel Alum scope rib 2.3oz
Marvel combo rib 3.8oz
Marvel Heavy scope rib 7oz
Marvel Steel rib from Rock River Arms 5.6oz
Nelson Scope rib 7.2oz


Last edited by Chris Miceli on Tue May 08, 2018 6:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
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AA 1911 TGT conv'n

Post by Russ OR on Wed May 02, 2018 11:51 am

My later model AA Tgt conversion does well with CCIsv - it's been reliable. It locks back (steel insert).  
I use AA conv'n magazines exclusively in the AA and my old Marvel. -- 
One thing with the poly mags: eventually they wear (round off) at the mag catch slot(?) and a couple of mine now won't always stay in the pistol.-These days I hold the mag release in when I insert and < dropping mags.-Not a bad idea regardless?
2¢ - YMMV
Below: I've not ordered from Lanbo's --- but good prices - optics rail available from Advantage Arms in Idaho:
https://lanbosarmory.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=11405
 

https://lanbosarmory.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=117&products_id=5832

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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by SW-52 on Wed May 02, 2018 11:51 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Your older 06 Marvrl should be a shooter. They used Shilen barrels back then. I’m of the opinion they are dry fire safe. I have replaced 2 firing pins from dry firing too much; they break from inertia because I don’t use a plug for dry firing. I don’t care if they break, it comes with territory;)
Jon
great argument jon,thanks!
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by SW-52 on Wed May 02, 2018 11:53 am

Chris Miceli wrote:I own a marvel and a nelson and neither have a factory barrel. The Nelson conversion is the most recent design from bob (that i know of). The nelson is dry fire safe and has a steel pin in the  aluminum slide for the slide lock back. The marvel is not dry fire safe and has this aluminum block built into the aluminum slide for the lockback model. The Nelson comes with a steel rib. The marvel comes with a aluminum with the option to upgrade to the steel version.  The nelson mags lock back the conversion. The marvel mags you have to buy the modified GSG mags (they insert some steel into the follower to press up on the slide lock).  Marvel sells a steel slide which Nelson does not. Marvel sells a combo rib which Nelson does not.

Marvel sends a test button of a 5 shot group, Nelson sends no test group.
Neither brand will tell you what brand of barrel they are using.

Since marvel comes with a test target claiming accuracy i put it to the test and couldn't replicate it with better ammo than was tested. 

I rebarreled my marvel and nelson to get the accuracy i wanted. My marvel is a steel slide version with optional heavy scope rib and aimpoint 9000, colt ace magazines modified to press the slide lock up on last shot. My nelson i use a custom milled rib from larry for my aimpoint micro and plastic magazines.

Both run flawlessly but i enjoy the recoil impulse of the steel slide marvel.

The marvel has more options like lock back vs not lock back, steel slide vs aluminum.
The marvel has better iron sights i think
thanks chris. i read about colt ace mags in new conversions,are lot better than GSG??
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by Chris Miceli on Wed May 02, 2018 12:02 pm

SW-52 wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:I own a marvel and a nelson and neither have a factory barrel. The Nelson conversion is the most recent design from bob (that i know of). The nelson is dry fire safe and has a steel pin in the  aluminum slide for the slide lock back. The marvel is not dry fire safe and has this aluminum block built into the aluminum slide for the lockback model. The Nelson comes with a steel rib. The marvel comes with a aluminum with the option to upgrade to the steel version.  The nelson mags lock back the conversion. The marvel mags you have to buy the modified GSG mags (they insert some steel into the follower to press up on the slide lock).  Marvel sells a steel slide which Nelson does not. Marvel sells a combo rib which Nelson does not.

Marvel sends a test button of a 5 shot group, Nelson sends no test group.
Neither brand will tell you what brand of barrel they are using.

Since marvel comes with a test target claiming accuracy i put it to the test and couldn't replicate it with better ammo than was tested. 

I rebarreled my marvel and nelson to get the accuracy i wanted. My marvel is a steel slide version with optional heavy scope rib and aimpoint 9000, colt ace magazines modified to press the slide lock up on last shot. My nelson i use a custom milled rib from larry for my aimpoint micro and plastic magazines.

Both run flawlessly but i enjoy the recoil impulse of the steel slide marvel.

The marvel has more options like lock back vs not lock back, steel slide vs aluminum.
The marvel has better iron sights i think
thanks chris. i read about colt ace mags in new conversions,are lot better than GSG??
they allow for the adjustment of the lips. Is it necessary... no clue but i like to provide the gunsmith every capability to adjust the gun for flawless feeding.


My nelson doesn't need a plug =] I use a yellow dry wall anchor or a piece of a magnetic business card on all my 22s.
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed May 02, 2018 12:42 pm

Steel Colt style mags control the feeding angle of the bullet tip. The plastic mags and GSG’s allow cartridge to flop up during recoil and the bullet tip can be scarred/deformed during feeding. It’s just one more thing to try and get consistent feeding with less deformation of the bullet through using front feedlips. Plastic mags and GSG’s do not have the ability to do this.
Jon
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by Saladman on Wed May 02, 2018 1:15 pm

Speaking of magazines for these conversions, has anyone tried the Tactical Innovations magazines?  They have their own conversion and magazines.

https://www.tacticalsol.com/22lr-conversion-magazines/2211-10-round-magazine

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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by Chris Miceli on Wed May 02, 2018 1:27 pm

Saladman wrote:Speaking of magazines for these conversions, has anyone tried the Tactical Innovations magazines?  They have their own conversion and magazines.

https://www.tacticalsol.com/22lr-conversion-magazines/2211-10-round-magazine

They are aluminum I imagine as untunable as the gsg. You’d have to call to see if the rear and front lips can be bent to tune
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by jmdavis on Wed May 02, 2018 2:03 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Steel Colt style mags control the feeding angle of the bullet tip. The plastic mags and GSG’s allow cartridge to flop up during recoil and the bullet tip can be scarred/deformed during feeding. It’s just one more thing to try and get consistent feeding with less deformation of the bullet through using front feedlips. Plastic mags and GSG’s do not have the ability to do this.
Jon

It's too bad someone isn't making quality steel mags that can be tuned.
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by Chris Miceli on Wed May 02, 2018 2:05 pm

jmdavis wrote:
Jon Eulette wrote:Steel Colt style mags control the feeding angle of the bullet tip. The plastic mags and GSG’s allow cartridge to flop up during recoil and the bullet tip can be scarred/deformed during feeding. It’s just one more thing to try and get consistent feeding with less deformation of the bullet through using front feedlips. Plastic mags and GSG’s do not have the ability to do this.
Jon

It's too bad someone isn't making quality steel mags that can be tuned.

The ones I got from triple k look like they hand built them over jagged rocks. The ones I’ve seen from them in previous years were much better
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by jmdavis on Wed May 02, 2018 2:07 pm

Yep. I have the two ace mags. I would like 1 or 2 more. But I can get by with the one good 50 yard mag and two that work fine for short line.
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by Jack H on Wed May 02, 2018 2:33 pm

Did Metalform stop making the 22 mags that came with early marvels?
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by Chris Miceli on Wed May 02, 2018 3:59 pm

Jack H wrote:Did Metalform stop making the 22 mags that came with early marvels?

I’ve been told it’s been years since metal form made those magazines
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by Amati on Wed May 02, 2018 5:30 pm

Both Larry Nelson and Travis Frerking are very nice guys, eminently available and will go to any lengths to please their clients. Can't go wrong with either one.
I'm a sucker for the sound of the steel slide, other than that Chris gave the most detailed analysis I've ever seen anywhere.

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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by jglenn21 on Wed May 02, 2018 6:49 pm

I have both a Nelson and an older non lock back Marvel...Both function great.. I added a steel RRA rib to my Marvel and prefer it these days...it also has a .6xx button

I agree with Jon in that my Marvel does not peen the chamber dry firing it.. Haven't broken the firing pin yet...obviously I need to dry fire more.
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by SW-52 on Wed May 02, 2018 7:29 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Steel Colt style mags control the feeding angle of the bullet tip. The plastic mags and GSG’s allow cartridge to flop up during recoil and the bullet tip can be scarred/deformed during feeding. It’s just one more thing to try and get consistent feeding with less deformation of the bullet through using front feedlips. Plastic mags and GSG’s do not have the ability to do this.
Jon
the colt Ace mags are super expensive,on ebay $200 Each.
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by Chris Miceli on Wed May 02, 2018 7:51 pm

jglenn21 wrote:I have both a Nelson and an older non lock back Marvel...Both function great.. I added a steel RRA rib to my Marvel and prefer it these days...it also has a .6xx button

I agree with Jon in that my Marvel does not peen the chamber dry firing it.. Haven't broken the firing pin yet...obviously I need to dry fire more.

The concern is not the firing pin hitting the breach face it’s the smashed up aluminum of the slide around the firing pin from the hammer.
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by SW-52 on Wed May 02, 2018 7:56 pm

This slide stop works with marvel or only with ace??

http://www.egwguns.com/1911-parts/egw-hd-slide-stop-machined-from-barstock-for-colt-ace/
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on Wed May 02, 2018 10:11 pm

only w/ ace...marvel is a completely different system
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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by willnewton on Thu May 03, 2018 12:11 am

jglenn21 wrote:I agree with Jon in that my Marvel does not peen the chamber dry firing it.. Haven't broken the firing pin yet...obviously I need to dry fire more.

When the firing pin breaks and you don’t realize it, then continue dry firing and shooting matches and start wondering where the heck are these alibis are coming from, you will have definitely peened the crap out of the chamber edge. Smile It was not hard to fix the chamber edge and replace the firing pin, but I no longer dry fire the Marvel, ever.

Bob Marvel himself told me to never dry fire the Marvel Precision conv. but didn’t think it would happen to me.

I have both conversions and not being able to dry fire or have a lockback on my Marvel has made me stop shooting it in matches. It has a threaded barrel and the only reason I still have it so I can play with my suppressor.

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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

Post by fpk on Thu May 03, 2018 6:02 am

Drywall anchors, then fire at will.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000H5WVCS/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Slice one side off to allow extractor to pass without catching the edge of the anchor. Put one layer of masking tape around it to fit more snuggly in chamber and not just fall out.

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Re: Marvel or Nelson???

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