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dot focus

Post by tyro on 5/4/2018, 6:29 pm

hi new to bullseye, while shooting timed fire and am concentrating on dot,sometimes my focus goes to target and i see holes getting punched thru target, i am totally in shooting mode and on autopilot. to force myself back to dot i turned up intensity. question ? do i stay with dot or go to target. thanks mike

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Re: dot focus

Post by dronning on 5/4/2018, 7:30 pm

tyro wrote:hi new to bullseye, while shooting timed fire and am concentrating on dot,sometimes my focus goes to target and i see holes getting punched thru target, i am totally in shooting mode and on autopilot. to force myself back to dot i turned up intensity. question ? do i stay with dot or go to target. thanks mike

Try both then pick the one it is easier for you to stay focused on there is no right answer.  During one of his clinics Brian Zins told me to focus on the target and my X count went up, so I stay focused on the target, but it doesn't work for everyone.

When I focus on the target my shots are more automatic (subconscious), if for some reason I loose that focus, I consciously take over the shot and that's when I will shoot an 8 or worse. 
- Dave
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Re: dot focus

Post by mikemyers on 5/4/2018, 7:57 pm

I started to think you meant your "attention", not your "focus"...  All the red dot sights I have tried have their focus set for "distance", so unlike steel sights, both the dot and the target will be "in focus".  From what you wrote though, you are changing your "focus" literally, which explains why the bullet holes are, or are not, sharp and visible.  With the Aimpoint and Matchdot II sights, at least the ones I have, the focus is so the dot appears sharpest when you're viewing the target, not trying to focus closer.  They are tube type sights.  Maybe yours are different?

What Dave wrote is going to be more useful advice than anything I might say, but in this case, I've already followed his advice, concentrating on the target.  That was easier, and worked better for me.
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Re: dot focus

Post by jglenn21 on 5/4/2018, 8:20 pm

I find focusing on the target helps me to not snatch shots given I don't hold anywhere close to what I did years ago  and now that I'm a grand senior(ugh Rolling Eyes )
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Re: dot focus

Post by fc60 on 5/4/2018, 8:26 pm

Greetings,

A Red Dot is designed to be viewed as imposed on the target.

Here you will want to use your distance prescription, if you wear glasses.

In the old days, prior to batteries, your glasses would have a prescription to focus on the front sight.

Cheers,

Dave
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Re: dot focus

Post by mikemyers on 5/4/2018, 10:15 pm

tyro wrote:.......to force myself back to dot i turned up intensity......
Doesn't seem right that you should be "forcing" yourself that way.  Wouldn't it be better to relax, pay attention to the target, and keep the blur of the dot moving around more or less centered over the target?


I think I'm repeating myself, but when you guys say "focus" do you literally mean focus, or do you mean "concentrate"?   Since the red dot and the target are both at "distance", if one is out of focus, the other will be also.  If you're far sighted, everything out there will be sharp.  If you're near sighted, you need corrective glasses, so your eye can focus properly.  (...assuming your red dot sight works the way Ultradot and Aimpoint sights work...)

Dave, I know what you mean.  I've now got three pair of shooting glasses, one to focus at 24" (front sight of gun held with two hands), 30" (front sight of gun held one handed), and "distance" (red dot sight, target, moon, Pluto.....).

jglenn21, I'm 74, so I can appreciate what you meant.  If you read Dave Salyer's article here on "Area Aiming", you might like that as much as I did.  My eyes used to make things sharper, and my hands used to be steadier....
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Re: dot focus

Post by CR10X on 5/5/2018, 5:22 am

If you see the "dot" and the target as the same "focus" distance, then you need to get your vision checked.  The dot will generally be in complete, clear focus for most dot scopes at a distance slightly less than the 50 Yd target.   

If you can actually focus clearly on the target or the dot, you will "see" the difference.

And that is one of the many problems that shooters have, not recognizing what a clear focus really is and not getting the best lenses possible to do so.  

In any event, when training at the marksman level, it will probably be beneficial to start with the focus on the dot on a blank target and get used to the wobble pattern, how it gets smaller, then larger to understand their wobble / holding pattern.  Seeing how "incorrect" grip and trigger process moves the dot will scare the crap out of most new dot shooters and introduce a lot of flinching and picking off shots.  Learn the wobble and how to grip and operate the trigger consistently and the dot will settle into a (mostly) predictable pattern.  Most people, if they have learned to actually see the front sight completely through the shot, will find this method more similar to what they have been doing with open sights. 

Then after understanding the timing and process of the wobble, as indicated by the movement of the dot, to determine the optimum time for their shot process (not to mention how to actually grip and operate the trigger straight to the rear); a shooter can then try a target focus and see which is more suited to their individual physical and mental makeup and shot process. Again, moving straight to "focusing" on the target generally makes new dot users even more apt to "trying to pick off" the shots and snatching or jerking the trigger when the dot just happens to be in what they think is the right place for that instant.  (Here we get into the fact that what we see is in the past, but that's another well too deep to climb down this morning.) 

In any event, the shooter will need to see everything that is going on during the shot process.  And if you can't see everything, then you can't call the shot properly.

CR

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Re: dot focus

Post by mikemyers on 5/6/2018, 11:18 am

CR10X wrote:If you see the "dot" and the target as the same "focus" distance, then you need to get your vision checked.  The dot will generally be in complete, clear focus for most dot scopes at a distance slightly less than the 50 Yd target........If you can actually focus clearly on the target or the dot, you will "see" the difference......And that is one of the many problems that shooters have, not recognizing what a clear focus really is and not getting the best lenses possible to do so......
Chris, from Wikipedia:

"Red dot sights place the target and the reticle on nearly the same optical plane, allowing a single point of focus. This makes them fast acquisition and easy to use sights, allowing the user to keep their attention on the field of view in front of them."


I had my cataracts replaced with an intra-ocular lens, meaning my eyes can no longer adjust the focus.  The IOL was selected for perfect distance vision.  For me, the target is clear, and the Aimpoint HR-1 red dot sight is equally clear and perfectly round.  (It becomes less so, if I turn the brightness way up.). 


I know I can apply my "attention" to the target or the dot, but the actual focus will not change.  In my case, I couldn't change my focus even if I wanted to, without changing my glasses to ones with a closer focal distance, as in computer glasses or reading glasses.
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Re: dot focus

Post by CR10X on 5/6/2018, 3:24 pm

First:

I was not talking about your eyes or anyone's in particular.  You can find anything on the internet and "nearly" is not the same.  And not all targets are are the same distance, so wiki just sucks anyway.   If you are lucky enough that The HR-1 is close to 50 yards to be apparently the same distance, then your are lucky.  But I'll bet it ain't exactly. 
 
And if it is, then the dot will not be in perfect focus at 25 yards.  Most manufacturers typically choose something around 25 yards or less as a design criteria.   This has been generally confirmed:

One popular fallacy that is commonly believed is that the dot itself is focused, or projected, at the same apparent distance as the target. By doing tests on four different models of sights, it has become quite apparent that this is NOT the case. With the aid of a SLR camera with a rangefinder focusing screen, by viewing the dot with 24 inches of eye relief, it becomes obvious that the dots on all four models are "focused" anywhere between 30 and 75 feet, regardless of the distance of the target. This distance is the sight's "sweet spot" and likely where it will perform best against off-center parallax, discussed next.   (This text from Bullseye Encyclopedia, but there have been others as well.) 

Exactly how good is the focus with your lens?  Can you see the X at 50 yards? Can you tell when the X is hit with .45 at 50 yards?  Can you call .45 holes in the white at 50 yards? 

Secondly, and most importantly, and please remember this:

I am not Chris.  Please don't do that again.  That's not what's on my HM card, etc, etc. 

CR

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Re: dot focus

Post by mikemyers on 5/6/2018, 3:57 pm

Oops, sorry about that - too many other things on my mind.  I apologize.
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