Hand, vs hands

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Hand, vs hands

Post by mikemyers on 5/6/2018, 10:28 am

I had a totally free night last night, and started dry firing with both my Model 52, and then my Salyer, switching back and forth between one hand shooting and two hands (which is what I've done since the 1970's).

The best thing about two hands, is with both of them supporting the weight of the gun, my muscles had an easier time of holding the gun reasonably still.

The best thing about one hand, was that the hand gripped the gun much more naturally, with all the fingers naturally going to what felt like the perfect place.  I was surprised at how good it felt, first with the Model 52, and then with the Salyer.  It felt like the gun was designed to be gripped with one hand, and when I used two, the second hand never really fit "naturally".  The second hand is referred to as the "support" hand, which means it's helping holding the gun, but it doesn't feel like it's helping to aim the gun, maybe the opposite.


For those of you who switched from two to one, for Bullseye shooting, did you do it "cold turkey", or did you shoot on and off both ways for a while?  ...and I'm scared to even ask this, but how long did it take you until shooting one hand matched your previous ability using two?  Weeks?  Months?  Years?

(I'm leaving on a six-week trip to India, meaning no shooting.  I can practice holding my "simulated gun", wearing a wrist weight though.  If I'm going to go ahead and switch, I could use that time to build up the muscles in my right arm and hand....)
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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by gregbenner on 5/6/2018, 3:28 pm

I switched pretty much cold turkey. Took a few weeks I suppose. I'm 69, but shoot nearly every day.

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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by VNK971 on 5/6/2018, 5:35 pm

I got back into shooting about 4 years ago after a 35 year break. After blowing through lots of ammo with no real way of determining if I was getting any better, about 6 months ago I started doing the NRA/Winchester qualification program for pistol. With all of my training and practice using two hands, I'm a former police officer, it was pretty easy until I got to near the end when the course of fire is one handed. That was a challenge, and fun. I decided to start shooting bullseye, and shot my first 2700 2 months ago. I can still cut the x out of a B27 at 15 yards with a revolver two handed and I shoot mostly two handed when I go to the range with friends. When I go for training and practice by myself it is all one handed. My goal in bullseye is to make sharpshooter. My last match average was 49%, up from 41%, so I have a ways to go. I shoot a Model 17 for .22, a Model 14 for CF, and a Model 25-2 for .45.

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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by Magload on 5/29/2018, 9:26 pm

Mike I started out shooting two handed at the close ranges most of the indoor shooters are shooting practicing their Self defense stuff.  I got petty good at it shooting 5 days a week for a year but then switched to one hand for BE.  I think I did this so I could buy some nice guns that shot better groups off a rest then the M&Ps I was buying.  Been a year or more at the BE and just have not got that good at it.  Think at 71 my arm has just got to weak.  But boy has it helped my two handed shooting.  I am deadly with two hands now.  Learn the proper two hand grip it is important where that second hand fits on the grip.  Don
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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by mikemyers on 5/29/2018, 9:42 pm

Thanks; maybe that is part of my problem.  I'm 75, and the gun literally feels like it weighs twice as much with only one hand holding it.

I'm doing Keith Richardson's "holding drills", trying to build up the muscles in both arms.  It may be getting better, but very slowly.

I'm the skinny kid getting sand kicked in my face in the Charles Atlas ads from long ago.  I'll keep working at it, but I'm not getting any younger.  I certainly agree with your last sentence - but I haven't given up on also using one hand.

Thanks!!
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Which Two-Hand?

Post by Amati on 5/30/2018, 6:25 am

Please explain which two-hand hold is being discussed here and which stance is used with it. 
Are we discussing Isosceles Traditional, Modern, Modified, Weaver, Combat etc. so many stances and holds. 

Is BTW a two-hand hold accepted in official BE competition?

Interesting thread, thanks Mike.

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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by apipeguy on 5/30/2018, 7:04 am

I have been shooting two hand for over 40 years. Also have been shooting “bullseye” two handed for several years and just recently have been trying to teach myself one handed bullseye shooting. It is quite a challenge and very refreshing trying to learn a new skill. I still like shooting steel, etc. but bullseye is just so different and in a way calming. You seem to have to get in the right mental frame and just kind of zone in to what you are doing. I’m over 60 and have been practicing my one hand hold in the basement to strengthen my arm along with dry firing. Loving it so far and hope to join a league this winter.
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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by willnewton on 5/30/2018, 7:27 am

We have guys that shoot with two hands for our informal weekly match.  They are 70+ and one has Parkinson’s and the other lost a leg in Vietnam combat.  They shoot very well.  They both are very experienced shooters and just want to be happy shooting.  They are not out to be National champs.

At another range, I shot with a group of beginning BE shooters for a while and of the 12-15 regulars, I was the only one that shot with one hand.  This was a younger, able-bodied crowd and to a one they would not even attempt shooting one handed.  
 I asked the fellow that came in first place every week if he would start shooting with one hand and he refused because, “I won’t win anymore if I do that.”.   Some of these folks were very new at shooting and for safety, should be shooting with two hands, but some of them were more worried about their pride rather than learning anything deeper about Bullseye.
The people in this group could not understand why I shot singlehanded at all.  I think this says a lot about the Match Director of this group, who mostly showed up smelling like a professional alcoholic (he had been kicked out of my regular range for being drunk at Bullseye) and stopped the match every round so he could go smoke cigarettes.  I am sad to say it, but I am glad this group broke up due to the range closing, it was a very poor environment for learning.

I remember asking about two-handers on the forum and I think John Bickar replied with a simple question “Are they affecting your score?” Smile

Here is the actual NRA rule.

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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by mikemyers on 5/30/2018, 8:06 am

willnewton wrote:.....I asked the fellow that came in first place every week if he would start shooting with one hand and he refused because, “I won’t win anymore if I do that.”.....
To get someone to switch, just out-shoot them one handed, and tell them two hand holds are not as good as one.    :-)

Thanks - I had no idea there was any such thing as two-hand Bullseye competition.
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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by Amati on 5/30/2018, 8:20 am

Thanks for posting the rule Will.

I first started shooting handguns in earnest back in the sixties and, being uncoached and untrained,  I quickly developed a stance of my own which I was later told was a modified Chapman. It made sense to me because of the geometry of it and it quickly yielded excellent results. 

Last year and now on the other Coast, looong after I had given up on handgun shooting, I fell in with a group of BE shooters and got started again but this time in classic BE one hand stance. Gone are now the excellent results I used to enjoy in years past and enter the horrible wobbles. 
Off course being significantly older and weaker doesn't help either.

Anyway, I'd like to know which holds and stances are used by two-handers in BE though I'm guessing that the answer is "whatever works best".

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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by mikemyers on 5/30/2018, 8:50 am

I can answer that for me - I'm following exactly what is described in "The Perfect Pistol Shot".  Albert League is very specific, and provides things to test to see if you agree with what he says.

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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by chopper on 5/30/2018, 9:21 pm

Mike, I went cold turkey also my first 2 yrs.I shot IDPA and 300 league at our range. There was only 1 guy shooting one handed and I continued with 2 hands until my 3rd yr. That's when I was asked if I'd like to shoot in our winter NRA postal with 5 other guys. I never shot one handed again, the Bullseye boys were much nicer and showed me a couple of exercises. I did weight to string to broomstick, and holding the gun up for 45secs and rest for 90 secs, but the one that helped me was bicep and tricep curls. I do the curls with those lifeline tubes those stretchy rubber bands.   VNK that's about where I started one handed maybe even 35% but it improved pretty good after a year of staying with it.
  Will, sounds like our club, same one handed guy wins every year, a 265 average would take it away from him, I'm not that consistent yet. I'll shoot the 300 again this year and I'll keep shooting it one handed. I agree it takes much more disipline and training. I love it and can't imagine shooting anything else. 
  Mike, I was so impressed with the Charles Atlas ads when I was a kid, those were great times. Hope you can enjoy this sport for many more years to come either one or two handed.
Stan

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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by mikemyers on 5/30/2018, 9:35 pm

Hey, thanks!   I'll never forget those ads, but I saw myself as the guy being pushed away.  Oh well.  Yeah, I'm building up my muscles, and when I get home I will try again, but I'm having too much fun two-handed to give it up.  No reason not to do both.  Being able to drive an automatic doesn't take away from being able to drive a car with a manual transmission, once you learn it.  For me, it was the other way around, but same thing.

Honestly, one handed feels "more natural" than two handed.  For me, it's a matter of being able to hold the gun reasonably steadily.  If I could do that, and still have my trigger finger work as I know it should, I'll be a happy camper.
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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by Magload on 5/31/2018, 10:19 am

Mike I have had no one kick sand in my face for shooting with two hands.  Don't carry gun to the beach it's hard to conceal and the salt air is hard on a nice blue job.  I think that add was in every comic book.  Don
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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by mikemyers on 5/31/2018, 11:26 am

Part of the reality is that I have a choice of trying to reduce my 4" group to 3", or my 12" group to 8".   With my Charles Atlas pills (or exercise) I might solve my biggest problem, holding the durn thing steady enough for long enough.  Trigger doesn't mean much when the gun is wobbling all over.  Who knows, I've been doing enough exercise, maybe I'll be better when I get back to the range.

I've also got a Taurus PT-92 at home which I never use.  It doesn't weigh much, shoots 9mm, and it can't have that bad a recoil - maybe I'll just start using that one handed.

I should have done this long ago.  By now, maybe I'd be doing better with one hand.
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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by Magload on 5/31/2018, 2:03 pm

Mike I joined a gym.  The only thing that did was take up shooting time.  Tried spinach before shooting also.  Don
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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by Allgoodhits on 5/31/2018, 3:45 pm

mikemyers wrote:Part of the reality is that I have a choice of trying to reduce my 4" group to 3", or my 12" group to 8".   With my Charles Atlas pills (or exercise) I might solve my biggest problem, holding the durn thing steady enough for long enough.  Trigger doesn't mean much when the gun is wobbling all over.  Who knows, I've been doing enough exercise, maybe I'll be better when I get back to the range.

I've also got a Taurus PT-92 at home which I never use.  It doesn't weigh much, shoots 9mm, and it can't have that bad a recoil - maybe I'll just start using that one handed.

I should have done this long ago.  By now, maybe I'd be doing better with one hand.

Unless the muzzle is touching the target, the trigger always matters. The trigger finger is the interface between the mechanical and the human. The trigger press can reduce all perfectly executed fundamentals on the most accurate gun/ammo combo and render it ineffective. Never under estimate the trigger press and it's importance. It my opinion, trigger press should be taught before sights.

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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by CR10X on 5/31/2018, 8:39 pm

Some Tournaments may provide for the One or Two Hand Probationary Pistol Match.  Others may not.  It is not a requirement and is at the discretion of that particular Tournament.  However if they have one, then the Tournament must abide by the requirements of Section 24.

Our Monthly Tournament does not provide for this option and specifically states the use of position under rule 5.5 in the Program.  This is mostly because we can't shoot simultaneously at 50 yards and 25 yards on our range (25 yards is the maximum distance for the Probationary Match) and secondly it would necessitate setting up 2 different match reporting spreadsheets.  

Don't be surprised if a lot of ranges can't accommodate this match in conjunction with a regular match due to the typical design of 50 yard and 25 yard lines with the frames overlapping when viewed from the firing line.  

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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by mikemyers on 5/31/2018, 9:42 pm

Allgoodhits wrote:Unless the muzzle is touching the target, the trigger always matters. The trigger finger is the interface between the mechanical and the human. The trigger press can reduce all perfectly executed fundamentals on the most accurate gun/ammo combo and render it ineffective. Never under estimate the trigger press and it's importance. It my opinion, trigger press should be taught before sights.
I certainly won't disagree with what you wrote, but it reminds me of the workers on the Titanic who were carrying the sacks of mail from the lower decks that were flooding, up to a higher deck.  When I'm holding my gun out in front of me with one hand, and the hand/gun starts shaking, while the trigger is still important, the shots are doomed anyway.   ....but the shaking hands is something that I think I can cure, by building up my muscles.  I'm not home now, but I can (and do) take a plastic shopping bag from Publix, fill it up with some books,   drape it over my wrist, and  practice holding my arm out in front of me, on and off, repeating for half an hour.  As I continue doing this, I start adding more books. I know it's working.  In three weeks I'll see how it may have improved my one-hand hold.

By the way, nobody, for years and years, told me anything about trigger press.  The only thing that people were telling me was "front sight".  I thought you just squeezed the trigger until the gun went [BANG], and if the sights were lined up, the hole should have been where I was aiming.  I guess technically, that was true, but I never considered that my trigger finger was moving the gun away from that spot.
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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by Allgoodhits on 6/1/2018, 3:24 pm

mikemyers wrote:
Allgoodhits wrote:Unless the muzzle is touching the target, the trigger always matters. The trigger finger is the interface between the mechanical and the human. The trigger press can reduce all perfectly executed fundamentals on the most accurate gun/ammo combo and render it ineffective. Never under estimate the trigger press and it's importance. It my opinion, trigger press should be taught before sights.
I certainly won't disagree with what you wrote, but it reminds me of the workers on the Titanic who were carrying the sacks of mail from the lower decks that were flooding, up to a higher deck.  When I'm holding my gun out in front of me with one hand, and the hand/gun starts shaking, while the trigger is still important, the shots are doomed anyway.   ....but the shaking hands is something that I think I can cure, by building up my muscles.  I'm not home now, but I can (and do) take a plastic shopping bag from Publix, fill it up with some books,   drape it over my wrist, and  practice holding my arm out in front of me, on and off, repeating for half an hour.  As I continue doing this, I start adding more books. I know it's working.  In three weeks I'll see how it may have improved my one-hand hold.

By the way, nobody, for years and years, told me anything about trigger press.  The only thing that people were telling me was "front sight".  I thought you just squeezed the trigger until the gun went [BANG], and if the sights were lined up, the hole should have been where I was aiming.  I guess technically, that was true, but I never considered that my trigger finger was moving the gun away from that spot.
The exercise you are doing is clearly better than nothing, but based on how you describe it, I do not see how it builds the wrist, or grip. Get a hand grip exerciser. GOLDS Gym ( WalMart) makes a pretty good one which enables adjusting tension. Use it as an exercise devise, also use it by compressing, hold the compression, while fully extending arm toward a reference against a background. Hold until wobble/shake becomes bad. Abort, then start over. You want to work on increasing tension on device, holding compression longer, or compressed with reduce wobble/shake. Repeat.

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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by mikemyers on 6/1/2018, 10:00 pm

You're right, I had a one-track mind.  What I'm doing is (only) building up the muscles that let me hold my arm out there while holding up a heavy gun.  I'll try to get something like what you're describing, but I have no idea what I'm looking for.  If you ever get time, please post a link, or a photo.  The only things I've gotten so far from Walmart are two 1.5 pound wrist weights.  Thanks!!
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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by james r chapman on 6/2/2018, 7:04 am

Maybe try using a camera tripod with a pad on it for support while you practice your trigger control?
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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by Allgoodhits on 6/2/2018, 9:35 am

james r chapman wrote:Maybe try using a camera tripod with a pad on it for support while you practice your trigger control?

Excellent suggestion.

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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by Allgoodhits on 6/2/2018, 9:37 am

mikemyers wrote:You're right, I had a one-track mind.  What I'm doing is (only) building up the muscles that let me hold my arm out there while holding up a heavy gun.  I'll try to get something like what you're describing, but I have no idea what I'm looking for.  If you ever get time, please post a link, or a photo.  The only things I've gotten so far from Walmart are two 1.5 pound wrist weights.  Thanks!!


https://www.walmart.com/ip/Gold-s-Gym-Adjustable-Hand-Grip/39082937

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Re: Hand, vs hands

Post by Magload on 6/2/2018, 11:00 am

Sometimes I like to just sit here in my computer chair, close my eyes, and squeeze the trigger.  Don't think of anything else just the squeeze.  No trying to aim or hold steady just be the trigger.  Feel it move.  Feel the pressure on your finger.  Feel the break.  Know your trigger.   I might install my MantisX and do the same thing and see if I moved the gun pushing on the trigger.  Don
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