Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

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Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by thessler on 5/14/2018, 5:55 am

Hi
I am new to this forum and new to this sport.
I have been practicing with a 22 for while and while I'm not ready to move up yet I'm thinking ahead to the center fire. I have a model 19 smith and wesson wich is a 357 and I planned on shooting 38 out of it. Every thing I'm reading says a model 14 is much more accurate, due to the 19 having bullet jump (what ever that is). In order to stop that I would need to reload 38 into a 357 case, this is over my head and I'm not sure how important it is. The model 19 might be just fine i dont know, im just looking at what im reading on the forums. Before I start shooting Center fire I want to be able to reload it, that way I'm not going to be concerned about wasting ammo.
So my question is do I buy a reloader for the model 19 or just get rid of it and buy a 45 and a reloader for that ?
Thanks for any advice, Tom

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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by Chris Miceli on 5/14/2018, 6:05 am

Just load 38 specials cases with 148s, you will be fine. You will eventually need a 45 if you want to shoot the whole 2700( you may shoot the whole 2700 22lr only as well). Many of us use the 45 for centerfire and 45. Most reloading presses allow for caliber changes
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by BE Mike on 5/14/2018, 7:40 am

If you really want to jump into the game and shoot 2700's, I'd pass on the S&W Model 19. It is a fine revolver, but you really need a 1911 in .45 ACP for bullseye matches.
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by USSR on 5/14/2018, 7:57 am

Chris Miceli wrote:Just load 38 specials cases with 148s, you will be fine. You will eventually need a 45 if you want to shoot the whole 2700( you may shoot the whole 2700 22lr only as well). Many of us use the 45 for centerfire and 45. Most reloading presses allow for caliber changes

+1.  Since you already own the Model 19, give it a try with .38 Special 148gr wadcutters, you just may be surprised at how accurate it is.

Don
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by Wobbley on 5/14/2018, 9:18 am

I have, amongst others, a Smith 66 4 inch, a 586, and a Python, all in 357. The Python shoots “lights out” with factory wadcutter ammo. The Smiths all shoot “lights dim” with factory wadcutter. The 586 the lights are very dim... I also have a 38 Special K38 model 14. On this the lights aren’t so dim. So 357s will shoot 38 Special wadcutter ammo. Just got to try it.
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by LenV on 5/14/2018, 11:09 am

I think you got your answer but I will add my .02. Other shooters are advising you to shoot 38 special with 148gr WC bullets in your .357. They are right. But what does that mean? It means the best shooting bullet in your .357 is the one round with the longest "bullet jump". That sort of destroys any worry about bullet jump in your longer rounds. I prefer 125gr XTP (also short) in my .357 or 38 Special for the long line but shoot the 148 with their mild recoil for the short line. If shooting DR (distinguished revolver) matches then a 158gr lead bullet is required. My revolver of choice for that competition is my N frame 27-2 .357 with 158gr RN bullets. I have never found a difference in accuracy between revolvers chambered for .357 or 38 special. I use the N frame because it fits my hand better. I own 14s, 19s and a 27. All of them shoot better then me.

Len
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by thessler on 5/14/2018, 11:40 am

Thanks for the replys.
Please explain to me, What is bullet jump ?
What is long round?
That would help my understanding, thanks Tom

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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by Chris Miceli on 5/14/2018, 12:01 pm

thessler wrote:Thanks for the replys.
Please explain to me, What is bullet jump ?
What is long round?
That would help my understanding,  thanks Tom
A bullet jumps forward (in the case) far enough to protrude from the face of the cylinder, thus preventing the cylinder from rotating normally.

crimp your rounds correctly and it won't be a problem.
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by USSR on 5/14/2018, 12:22 pm

Chris,

I read "bullet jump" somewhat differently.   I see it as the distance a bullet has to go to reach the throat, which would be slightly longer when leaving a .38 case as opposed to a .357 case. 

thessler,

Long round I believe is referring to the .357 Magnum round, which is longer than the .38 Special round.

Don
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by Chris Miceli on 5/14/2018, 12:31 pm

USSR wrote:Chris,

I read "bullet jump" somewhat differently.   I see it as the distance a bullet has to go to reach the throat, which would be slightly longer when leaving a .38 case as opposed to a .357 case. 

thessler,

Long round I believe is referring to the .357 Magnum round, which is longer than the .38 Special round.

Don
Isn't that called free bore?
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on 5/14/2018, 1:05 pm

In my mind the free bore of a 357 mag cylinder is from the neck of the magnum case to the end of the cylinder.
To me the area between the area between where the spl & mag neck is a no man's land where additional variables hide.
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by BE Mike on 5/14/2018, 4:01 pm

Back when revolvers were king in Police Pistol Combat matches (PPC) some pistolsmith made short cylinders for K frame S&W revolvers, which would only accommodate .38 SPL wadcutter ammo. Supposedly this eliminated the jump you're talking about. As it turned out, these specially made revolvers didn't shoot any more accurately than the standard cylinder ones. The internet is great, but one must sift through a lot a chaff before finding kernels of wheat. Your model 19 will most likely shoot .38 SPL wadcutters accurately out to 50 yards.
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by thessler on 5/14/2018, 5:26 pm

OK got it thanks guys
Tom

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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by kjanracing on 5/14/2018, 9:39 pm

I have a model 14, 586, a Ruger GP 100, and a Freedom Arms 97, oh and a Dan Wesson. Only the 14 is .38 spl. They all shoot fantastically with .38s.
Kurt
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by Wmvdg123 on 5/25/2018, 12:32 pm

How much more accurate is your freedom arms 97 than the other revolvers Kurt?

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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by kjanracing on 5/25/2018, 10:47 pm

Hmmm, I haven’t rested or sand bagged them back to back, so I really can’t answer that. I’d think using a Ransom on them, I’d put my money on the 97. It really comes down to which one can I shoot most accurately. The separator is rapid fire. I can shoot slow and timed pretty well with all of them, but the 14 works best for me for rapid fire. It is the easiest, best fitting, revolver for me to thumb the hammer if shooting single action, and has the best trigger for double.
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by sbtzc on 5/26/2018, 11:24 am

Why not use .357 magnum cases and a (soft) .38 special load?
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by Allgoodhits on 5/26/2018, 12:46 pm

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:In my mind the free bore of a 357 mag cylinder is from the neck of the magnum case to the end of the cylinder.
To me the area between the area between where the spl & mag neck is a no man's land where additional variables hide.
To my thinking free bore is that portion just forward of the throat, prior to engaging rifling or the normal barrel bore diameter. In other words shotguns are also free bored to reduce felt recoil. Revolvers are different from other types in that the chamber is not part of the barrel. There was a modification which had some level of popularity among revolver shooters which was called Taylor Throating the barrel. This technique was in essence free boring or extending the throat further into the barrel, so that the bullet is 100% parallel aligned with the rifling before the leading edge of the bullet came into contact with lands. Some argued this was very useful in enhancing accuracy, some 'smiths argued that if the cylinder is "timed" properly Taylor throating is not necessary. I am sure that debate continues.....

MJ
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by willnewton on 5/26/2018, 2:37 pm

I just wanted to get my learn on and make sure I was using correct terminology myself.

Free bore:
http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.rifle-barrel-free-bore.html

Bullet jump:
http://www.mssblog.com/2017/08/17/reloaders-corner-bullet-jump-does-it-really-matter-part-one/

TLDR;
They are the same.  Chris stated "a bullet jumps". USSR stated "bullet jump".  I think USSR slightly misinterpreted the remark from Chris, whose choice of phrasing was close to "bullet jump", another term for free bore, as Chris replied.

I did try to find if there was a term for a NON-firing bullet jumping forward from the case in a revolver cylinder due to recoil from the fired bullet that might cause a malfunction, therefore requiring a roll crimp on the case, but could not think of what it might be...

Perhaps "bullet jump"? Very Happy
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on 5/26/2018, 3:15 pm

Allgoodhits wrote:
STEVE SAMELAK wrote:In my mind the free bore of a 357 mag cylinder is from the neck of the magnum case to the end of the cylinder.
To me the area between the area between where the spl & mag neck is a no man's land where additional variables hide.
To my thinking free bore is that portion just forward of the throat, prior to engaging rifling or the normal barrel bore diameter. In other words shotguns are also free bored to reduce felt recoil. Revolvers are different from other types in that the chamber is not part of the barrel. There was a modification which had some level of popularity among revolver shooters which was called Taylor Throating the barrel. This technique was in essence free boring or extending the throat further into the barrel, so that the bullet is 100% parallel aligned with the rifling before the leading edge of the bullet came into contact with lands. Some argued this was very useful in enhancing accuracy, some 'smiths argued that if the cylinder is "timed" properly Taylor throating is not necessary. I am sure that debate continues.....

MJ

BUT.....when you shoot 38s in a .357 mag cylinder you have about  a 1/8" are that is about .38 before you get to the actual throat of the cylinder which is about .357.  after that you've got the cylinder gap before the barrels throat.  That  gap between the edge of the case and the edge of the cylinder's throat is what I consider a no man's land.

I guess it comes down to how fine you want to split hairs and where you draw the line between practical & ultimate accuracy.
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by Allgoodhits on 5/26/2018, 3:19 pm

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:
Allgoodhits wrote:
STEVE SAMELAK wrote:In my mind the free bore of a 357 mag cylinder is from the neck of the magnum case to the end of the cylinder.
To me the area between the area between where the spl & mag neck is a no man's land where additional variables hide.
To my thinking free bore is that portion just forward of the throat, prior to engaging rifling or the normal barrel bore diameter. In other words shotguns are also free bored to reduce felt recoil. Revolvers are different from other types in that the chamber is not part of the barrel. There was a modification which had some level of popularity among revolver shooters which was called Taylor Throating the barrel. This technique was in essence free boring or extending the throat further into the barrel, so that the bullet is 100% parallel aligned with the rifling before the leading edge of the bullet came into contact with lands. Some argued this was very useful in enhancing accuracy, some 'smiths argued that if the cylinder is "timed" properly Taylor throating is not necessary. I am sure that debate continues.....

MJ

BUT.....when you shoot 38s in a .357 mag cylinder you have about  a 1/8" are that is about .38 before you get to the actual throat of the cylinder which is about .357.  after that you've got the cylinder gap before the barrels throat.  That  gap between the edge of the case and the edge of the cylinder's throat is what I consider a no man's land.

I guess it comes down to how fine you want to split hairs and where you draw the line between practical & ultimate accuracy.

… and if you shoot wadcutters there is more travel in "no man's" land, yet WCs shoot very well. Revolvers and especially WCs in revolvers tend to defy normal standards required for accuracy.
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by Aufidius on 5/26/2018, 7:51 pm

I load for a Model 19 and use 2.75 grains of WST under a 148 grain wadcutter (I've had good luck with all the brands, Remmy, Hornady, and Speer; primer doesn't seem to matter much). Recently, I came into some DEWC from my grandfathers estate, and I can't tell a difference between it and a regular 38 HBWC (other than maybe a little more recoil?).

Good shooting!

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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by mpolans on 5/26/2018, 11:15 pm

BE Mike wrote:Back when revolvers were king in Police Pistol Combat matches (PPC) some pistolsmith made short cylinders for K frame S&W revolvers, which would only accommodate .38 SPL wadcutter ammo. Supposedly this eliminated the jump you're talking about. As it turned out, these specially made revolvers didn't shoot any more accurately than the standard cylinder ones. The internet is great, but one must sift through a lot a chaff before finding kernels of wheat. Your model 19 will most likely shoot .38 SPL wadcutters accurately out to 50 yards.
I would've thought the short cylinders would've also been for lightening up the double action trigger pull, since you'd be getting rid of rotating mass.

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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

Post by BE Mike on 5/27/2018, 1:12 pm

mpolans wrote:
BE Mike wrote:Back when revolvers were king in Police Pistol Combat matches (PPC) some pistolsmith made short cylinders for K frame S&W revolvers, which would only accommodate .38 SPL wadcutter ammo. Supposedly this eliminated the jump you're talking about. As it turned out, these specially made revolvers didn't shoot any more accurately than the standard cylinder ones. The internet is great, but one must sift through a lot a chaff before finding kernels of wheat. Your model 19 will most likely shoot .38 SPL wadcutters accurately out to 50 yards.
I would've thought the short cylinders would've also been for lightening up the double action trigger pull, since you'd be getting rid of rotating mass.
Yes, I think that ultimately that was considered the benefit, but I believe Jim Collins (RIP) the first to shoot a perfect 1500 x 1500 used a standard cylinder. http://www.nramuseum.com/guns/the-galleries/modern-firearms-1950-to-present/case-53-arms-of-law-enforcement/smith-wesson-model-14-3-revolver.aspx
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Re: Smith and wesson model 19 or not ?

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