Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

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Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by russ69 on 5/14/2018, 1:23 pm

Hi guys. First post. I have some questions with the new May 2018 CMP rules. I would like to shoot a Ruger 1911 Target in 9mm. It looks like that would be legal in Open, Metallic, Service, but not in the Production class? Can you shoot the National Match course of fire without a 45 now? It also looks like I can shoot any safe load except in Service Pistol where I have to shoot a FMJ bullet?  Do I have this right? Lastly, I like the reduced recoil of a 9mm, am I putting myself at a disadvantage?
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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by james r chapman on 5/14/2018, 2:23 pm

In the CMP rules for PRECISION PISTOL, there is a list of eligible firearms.
EIC (excellence in competition) require metal jacketed ammo (except .22).

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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by russ69 on 5/14/2018, 2:46 pm

james r chapman wrote:In the CMP rules for PRECISION PISTOL, there is a list of eligible firearms.
EIC (excellence in competition) require metal jacketed ammo (except .22).

Thanx James. Yes the list is for other allowed Service Pistols. I bolded the new rule that allows 1911 Service Pistols with a 9mm bore!  So can we shoot a 9mm twice on the National Match Course now or is that all gone now (shooting 3 bore sizes)?  I'm still confused. 

4.2.3  Approved U. S. Service Pistols and Commercial Equivalents The following U. S. Government Service Pistols or commercial versions of the same type and caliber may be used in CMP-sanctioned Service Pistol Matches, provided they comply with Rules 4.2.1 and 4.2.2.
a) U. S. Government or Colt M1911 Service Pistols or commercial versions of the same type (M1911).  These pistols may be chambered for any cartridge with a bore diameter not less than 9mm and not greater than .45” and have a barrel length not greater than 5.100”... 

4.2.4  Other Approved Service Pistols

4.4.2 Pistol Ammunition a) Service Pistol. Service Pistol competitors may use any safe ammunition that is loaded with metal-jacketed or metal-plated bullets.  Non-jacketed, wad-cutter or lead bullets may not be used.
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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by Olde Pilot on 5/14/2018, 3:09 pm

Note "Metal-Plated" bullets are OK. Interestingly, since the allowed metal-plated bullets are "non-jacketed", the rule would seem to allow them and then disallow them in the same paragraph. Somebody at CMP needs English/proof reading lessons to avoid obvious contradictions!

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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by russ69 on 5/14/2018, 3:30 pm

Olde Pilot wrote:Note "Metal-Plated" bullets are OK. Interestingly, since the allowed metal-plated bullets are "non-jacketed", the rule would seem to allow them and then disallow them in the same paragraph. Somebody at CMP needs English/proof reading lessons to avoid obvious contradictions!
Yes, I had to read that a couple of times myself. I read that as: You can use jacketed or plated bullets but you can't use wadcutters or other lead bullet designs unless they are jacketed. I think the intent is they want a round nose bullet with a FMJ or fully plated bullet but you know rule makers, they try to obfuscate as much as possible. Who knows? Everybody was using jacketed Nosler HPs the last time I was shooting a 45.
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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by cdrt on 5/14/2018, 4:03 pm

The original OP mixed CMP and NRA rules regarding the legality of his pistol.  I'm just going to comment on the CMP rules for Service Pistol matches, not the Games matches.
Yes, it is confusing about what calibers are legal, but what they meant was the 1911 in 9x19mm (Luger, Parabellum, whatever you call it) is legal for the Service Pistol EIC.
Any metal plated bullet (Berry's, etc) or metal jacketed bullet is legal for the Service Pistol EIC match whether it is a round nose or hollow point.
They specifically mention wadcutter bullets as not legal since they do not want you shooting a .38 Special 1911 in the Service Pistol match.
I have sent in some suggestions to the CMP to clean up the language so it is not so confusing.

If you want to talk about the Games rules, you have a whole new ball game.
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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by dronning on 5/14/2018, 4:16 pm

- ya beat me to it but I'm going to post it anyway.

I think you are mixing up terms.
A National Match Course is a 30 shot match and consists of a
10 shot Slow Fire
10 shot Timed Fire
10 Shot Rapid Fire

The CMP EIC match is a 30 shot Match or a National Match Course.  There is a 22 match and a service pistol match 
The Presidents Pistol Match is a 40 shot match:
2 10 shot Slow Fire targets or 20 shots
10 Timed Fire
10 shots Rapid fire.

The NRA National Matches is a 2700 3 gun match  22, CF, 45ACP each gun consists of
2 Slow Fire Targets
A National Match Course of 10 Slow Fire, 10 Timed fire and 10 Rapid fire
2 Timed Fire Targets
2 Rapid Fire Targets

Total 90 shots each with your
.22
CF / .32 to .45
.45ACP

- Dave
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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by russ69 on 5/14/2018, 5:09 pm

Thanx guys, I'm with you guys now. I'm not sure I mixed it up as much as the rulebook did when the NRA rulebook says go look at the CMP rulebook, LOL. If I wasn't already familiar with NRA shooting I wouldn't even know where to start. Smile  I have no idea how a newbie would know what's going on. Thanks for the clarification, it's back to my Gold Cup and semi-wadcutters I guess. Darn, I was hoping to play with a 9mm a little and dump the 45ACP (for NRA).  I'm not sure the 45ACP makes as much sense as it did in years past but it sure cuts a nice big scoring hole.  Smile Thanx.
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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by dronning on 5/14/2018, 5:58 pm

russ69 wrote:.... I'm not sure the 45ACP makes as much sense as it did in years past but it sure cuts a nice big scoring hole.  Smile Thanx.
Actually I think it makes more sense now, it's the great equalizer.  I can't tell you how many I see shooting reduced calibers in CF with 850 plus scores in 22 & CF shoot in the 600's or low 700's with the 45.  If you never learn to shoot the 45 well you will struggle to get to or past Expert.
- Dave
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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by Dave Lange on 5/14/2018, 8:15 pm

dronning wrote:- ya beat me to it but I'm going to post it anyway.

I think you are mixing up terms.
A National Match Course is a 30 shot match and consists of a
10 shot Slow Fire
10 shot Timed Fire
10 Shot Rapid Fire

The CMP EIC match is a 30 shot Match or a National Match Course.  There is a 22 match and a service pistol match 
The Presidents Pistol Match is a 40 shot match:
2 10 shot Slow Fire targets or 20 shots
10 Timed Fire
10 shots Rapid fire.

The NRA National Matches is a 2700 3 gun match  22, CF, 45ACP each gun consists of
2 Slow Fire Targets
A National Match Course of 10 Slow Fire, 10 Timed fire and 10 Rapid fire
2 Timed Fire Targets
2 Rapid Fire Targets

Total 90 shots each with your
.22
CF / .32 to .45
.45ACP

- Dave

45 ACP is not required for NRA 45 match. Rule 3.3 "Any .45 Caliber Semi-automatic Pistol or Revolver"
If you use a revolver, the trigger can be 2 1/2 lbs.

Dave Lange.

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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by CR10X on 5/14/2018, 8:17 pm

You seem to have confused a couple of things here, but in general I think your question got answered.  If not, here is some more information to consider. 

The NRA rule references the CMP rule book for the definition of: • 3.1.1 U.S. Pistol, Caliber .45 m1911 or 1911A1 or a Commercial Pistol for the Same Type and Caliber – Refer to CMP Rule Book. • 3.1.2 U.S. Pistol, 9 mm, M9 or a Commercial Pistol of the Same Type and Caliber- Refer to CMP Rule Book.   This is because you can have a NRA Tournament wherein one of these service pistols may be specified as the required equipment for a specific match within a Tournament. 

But do not get that confused with the Divisions (Rule 3.0 - 1.; 2.; and 3.) or the typical Aggregate Matches (.22 / CF / .45) (Where the equipment is specified under Rules 3.2; 3.3; and 3.4).  A .45 Aggregate Match still requires a .45 caliber pistol or revolver. 

NRA has three Divisions (Open, Metallic, and Production) that can be used for any Tournament.  The Tournament can be comprised of a combination of Matches (for example Slow Fire, NMC, TF, or RF) and may have one or more Aggregates (.22, CF and .45) comprised of the separate Matches (for example all 3 Aggregates using SF, NMC, TF and RF Matches makes a typical 2700 Tournament).  Just read the Tournament (Match) Program to see what Matches the Tournament will use.   

Now here comes the tricky part when competing in other Divisions besides Open.  If, during a Tournament, a competitor fires a Production gun in the .22 Match, a Metallic gun in the CF Match and an Open gun in the .45 match; the competitor will be in the Open division for the Tournament and awards.  (Highest Division fired by the competitor for the Tournament will determine the competitors aggregate for the Tournament and the SR1 uses the aggregate score and number of shots fired in that Tournament.)  So if you want to get classification in Production, then you would need to compete using a Production gun for all the Matches for which your scores will be submitted.  

The specific matches (note lower case "m") for each Tournament will be specified in the Tournament Program.  Typically these will consist of courses of fire for which the NRA keeps National Records (even if it is only an Approved Tournament).  [17.5 Courses of Fire for Which National Records Are Recognized]  

As explained further, the CMP matches are either a 30 shot EIC match or 40 shot (Presidents Match or also listed as 40 Shot Pistol Match by CMP such as the Eastern Games, etc.)  The 30 shot EIC match is the typical NMC course of fire.  The 40 shot Pistol Match has 2 strings of 10 shots SF and then 2 strings of 5 shots TF and 2 strings of 5 shots RF. 

Enough confusion for one night.  Just read the program is the generally the best recommendation, then ask the match director. 

CR

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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by sbtzc on 5/14/2018, 9:34 pm

affraid What a Face affraid What a Face affraid What a Face affraid What a Face affraid

Are those written by insurance document writers?


Edit: I'm not trying to be a smart ass,... ok, maybe. But does this have to be so damned complicated? When I first started bullseye, it was all the rules, not the shooting that was the hard part. When I've helped newbies, it seemed to be the same. Learning to shoot precision, which is not easy, shouldn't be overwhelmed by the minutia of this rule or that class and those exceptions.

Just my 2 cents


Last edited by sbtzc on 5/15/2018, 9:01 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Clarification)

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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by russ69 on 5/15/2018, 10:16 pm

sbtzc wrote:...Learning to shoot precision, which is not easy, shouldn't be overwhelmed by the minutia of this rule or that class and those exceptions....
It is kinda funny that you can have a single pistol that can qualify as Open, Metallic, or Production and YOU have to tell them what class you are in so they will know, LOL.  

Oh, here's another one:

  "Pistol competitors with the .45 Caliber pistol may use any safe ammunition with a 230 grain, full metal jacket, round nosed bullet..."

May use?  That means it's allowed, not required? Is that right?
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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by CR10X on 5/16/2018, 6:07 am

First, remember a Tournament / Game / Match is either under CMP rules or NRA rules.  Not both.  A lot of people confuse this.  These are 2 different organizations, each with their own rule book.  

Yes, if you are at a NRA Tournament where the Program has a NRA Service Pistol match, according to the NRA rules, you "may" use any safe ammunition with 230 grain, full metal jacket, round nose bullet.  If you do not, then according to the NRA rules you can get a 0 score. 

(Now what the NRA was trying to do, and has obviously not caught up with yet, is to mimic the CMP requirements.  Even the further rule reference to the CMP rules is outdated, there is no 4.16(c) in the CMP book anymore.  I'm sure they will eventually catch up, but generally there are very few NRA Service Pistol Matches.)

If you are at a CMP Tournament, match, games, whatever; then you can use any jacketed ammunition for some matches, only full metal jacketed for others. The pistol you have will only be allowed for certain CMP matches as well, not all.   

I don't understand your comment about Open, Metallic, or Production Divisions versus telling what "class you are in".  Every Tournament and Match Director will generally have to know what your Classification is (MK, SS, EX, MA, etc.) and what Division you are competing in if not Open so as to properly send in your scores / number of shots on the SR1 Report.  And it would be unfair for someone to shoot Open in say .22 and CF and then Production in .45 and win the production Division against someone who shot Production in all 3 Aggregates. So, the rules address this by putting the competitor in the highest Division they competed in for the Tournament for awards.  

You can shoot your Ruger 1911 Target in the NRA Centerfire Match but not the .45 Match, but it will be either Open or Metallic Division, not Production as it is a singe action pistol.  

You shoot it in the CMP 40 Shot Match / President 100 and the EIC match, with any jacketed ammunition or probably the Military & Police Service Pistol with full metal jacketed ammunition.  But not in the As Issued 1911, Glock (its not a Glock), unless it meets the requirements (no adjustable sights, not match conditioned and with full metal jacketed ammo, etc. etc.

Yes, it is complicated.  Because the CMP and NRA decided to try and set up different competitions in order appease everyone that wanted to shoot ________  (fill in the blank).   Makes it just a pain in butt for match director too, sometimes.  

So, know which match you are going to, check out the rules and ask the match director.  (But I would suggest not giving him / her any grief or complaints about the rules, they already have enough on their plate.)

CR

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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by Chris Miceli on 5/16/2018, 6:12 am

CR10X wrote:First, remember a Tournament / Game / Match is either under CMP rules or NRA rules.  Not both.  A lot of people confuse this.  These are 2 different organizations, each with their own rule book.  

Yes, if you are at a NRA Tournament where the Program has a NRA Service Pistol match, according to the NRA rules, you "may" use any safe ammunition with 230 grain, full metal jacket, round nose bullet.  If you do not, then according to the NRA rules you can get a 0 score. 

(Now what the NRA was trying to do, and has obviously not caught up with yet, is to mimic the CMP requirements.  Even the further rule reference to the CMP rules is outdated, there is no 4.16(c) in the CMP book anymore.  I'm sure they will eventually catch up, but generally there are very few NRA Service Pistol Matches.)

If you are at a CMP Tournament, match, games, whatever; then you can use any jacketed ammunition for some matches, only full metal jacketed for others. The pistol you have will only be allowed for certain CMP matches as well, not all.   

I don't understand your comment about Open, Metallic, or Production Divisions versus telling what "class you are in".  Every Tournament and Match Director will generally have to know what your Classification is (MK, SS, EX, MA, etc.) and what Division you are competing in if not Open so as to properly send in your scores / number of shots on the SR1 Report.  And it would be unfair for someone to shoot Open in say .22 and CF and then Production in .45 and win the production Division against someone who shot Production in all 3 Aggregates. So, the rules address this by putting the competitor in the highest Division they competed in for the Tournament for awards.  

You can shoot your Ruger 1911 Target in the NRA Centerfire Match but not the .45 Match, but it will be either Open or Metallic Division, not Production as it is a singe action pistol.  

You shoot it in the CMP 40 Shot Match / President 100 and the EIC match, with any jacketed ammunition or probably the Military & Police Service Pistol with full metal jacketed ammunition.  But not in the As Issued 1911, Glock (its not a Glock), unless it meets the requirements (no adjustable sights, not match conditioned and with full metal jacketed ammo, etc. etc.

Yes, it is complicated.  Because the CMP and NRA decided to try and set up different competitions in order appease everyone that wanted to shoot ________  (fill in the blank).   Makes it just a pain in butt for match director too, sometimes.  

So, know which match you are going to, check out the rules and ask the match director.  (But I would suggest not giving him / her any grief or complaints about the rules, they already have enough on their plate.)

CR
At the 2017 pistol meeting i recall them saying they will be change the rule book to something like "refer to CMP service pistol rule book for ammunition requirements).  I also recall them saying they will no longer have a production division as you can shoot your production gun in the metallic group.  Printed 2018 rule books are supposedly going to be in the Perry shooters welcome package. I hope the downloadable one will be available before that.
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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by cdrt on 5/16/2018, 7:45 am

russ69 wrote:
sbtzc wrote:...Learning to shoot precision, which is not easy, shouldn't be overwhelmed by the minutia of this rule or that class and those exceptions....
It is kinda funny that you can have a single pistol that can qualify as Open, Metallic, or Production and YOU have to tell them what class you are in so they will know, LOL.  

Oh, here's another one:

  "Pistol competitors with the .45 Caliber pistol may use any safe ammunition with a 230 grain, full metal jacket, round nosed bullet..."

May use?  That means it's allowed, not required? Is that right?

They are referencing the fact that you can use either factory ammo or reloads, but it must be 230 grain FMJ round nose.
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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by CR10X on 5/16/2018, 8:06 am

Chris:

The NRA Precision Pistol rules I referenced are from the website, document says "REVISED MAY 2018".  Still has 3 Divisions, incorrect reference to CMP ammunition rules, etc.  I would surprised if there is something different before July 2018.

But, you never can tell.  Hope they get the updates soon.  One less Division to worry about.

CR

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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by Chris Miceli on 5/16/2018, 8:17 am

CR10X wrote:Chris:

The NRA Precision Pistol rules I referenced are from the website, document says "REVISED MAY 2018".  Still has 3 Divisions, incorrect reference to CMP ammunition rules, etc.  I would surprised if there is something different before July 2018.

But, you never can tell.  Hope they get the updates soon.  One less Division to worry about.

CR
I don't have much faith that anything really is going to change....  https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/4/26/nra-2018-rule-changes/

Precision Pistol
For the Distinguished Revolver Program competitions must occur only at National, Regional, and State Championship level matches.
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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by CR10X on 5/16/2018, 8:53 am

I'm actually a little in favor of the change for Distinguished Revolver.   There were some places (reportedly) that were having monthly DR matches which is a little unfair (in my opinion), availability wise, for shooters in other areas.  

But, on the other hand I would like to see an exception that if there is not a Regional and State Match within the state, an NRA affiliated club would be allowed to have up to 2 DR matches per year for that state.  That would help level the availability field, but put some record keeping work on the NRA, which is as it should be. 

CR

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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

Post by russ69 on 5/16/2018, 9:35 am

CR10X wrote:... (But I would suggest not giving him / her any grief or complaints about the rules, they already have enough on their plate.)...
I have never given a match director or RO any "grief" during/before/or after a match. Generally because I know the rules for the competition I'm competing in. Although I have run into some old salty match directors (club level) that are still using rule books from the 60s and darn it, that's the way we have always done it!  Smile Smile Smile Smile
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Re: Help with Brand New CMP/NRA rules

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