Shoulder effect

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Shoulder effect

Post by bruce martindale on 5/15/2018, 8:46 pm

l don't see too much discussion regarding the effect of the shoulder, especially will the 45.

Sub calibers shooting seem to allow a natural lift and shoulder position but this may not be good for heavier recoil. Generally no muscle use.


What are thoughts on using muscles to push the arm out and to lift and stiffen the shoulder?

Seems to work well

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Jon Eulette on 5/15/2018, 9:06 pm

Arm up not out Wink
Shoulder is hinge. Rigid arm lifted up then settled. Most experts and below don’t do this very well. Looks like noodle arm. Makes Gigantic Difference!
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by mspingeld on 5/16/2018, 7:00 am

Have you read the Yur'Yev book. He talks a lot about anatomy as it relates to stance. That said, shoulder blade down and in seems to provide a more stable platform for hold and recoil with less muscle involvement. (Jon, did I get that right?)

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Amati on 5/16/2018, 7:13 am

The slow-twitch muscle fibers of the arm and shoulder are essential in order to maintain longer-term contractions, key for stabilization and postural control. 
More muscle and high concentration of myoglobin, the oxygen-binding element in blood, equals less wobble and a smaller aiming area. The study of musculotendon displacements confirms this. 
The Ultrasound Elastography of the muscles in an outstretched arm holding a 45 oz. weight speaks volumes.
Building lean muscle is important and resistance exercises for the arm and shoulder are most beneficial.

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by mspingeld on 5/16/2018, 7:36 am

Amati, Thanks for that explanation! 

Can you translate that into a practical guide? I understand the need to build lean muscle. How should one involve the shoulder/shoulder blade? Up? Down? Pulled in? Pushed out?

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Chris Miceli on 5/16/2018, 7:51 am

mspingeld wrote:Amati, Thanks for that explanation! 

Can you translate that into a practical guide? I understand the need to build lean muscle. How should one involve the shoulder/shoulder blade? Up? Down? Pulled in? Pushed out?
As someone who has been in physical therapy since January with a shoulder injury. I'm constantly being told to pinch my shoulder blade and pull them down. Its not a maxed contraction.  Been doing a lot of rehab on my supraspinatus, infraspinatus, subscapularis, and serratus anterior. Along with condition most of the thoracic muscles as well as most of the larger shoulder muscles. For me its been the lack of stability not the strength of lifting something.
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Jon Eulette on 5/16/2018, 9:08 am

Yes shoulder blade down against the ribs for stability. If arm is raised at the shoulder, the scapula will come off the ribs. Many newer shooters don’t realize they are doing this.
Jon
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Amati on 5/16/2018, 9:17 am

Chris, you have strength but first you need to identify what type of muscle fibers you have developed in your arms. 
Slow twitch fibers are what you need for stability while lifting weights is best accomplished with fast twitch muscle fibers. 
Here is a quick test:

https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/betteru2l.htm

Lifting the 45 oz. weight at arms length is easy with fast twitch, holding it motionless for a length of time is the slow twitch.

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Jon Eulette on 5/16/2018, 9:37 am

Grip gun, lift gun, Aim gun, shoot gun, X!
Damn I did it wrong because I forgot to check if it was a fast or slow twitch muscle fibers I used :-)

Let’s not overthink this.
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by jmdavis on 5/16/2018, 9:52 am

Jon, should one pull back on the shoulder to keep it down? I hope that I am making the idea clear.
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Amati on 5/16/2018, 9:57 am

One either has a preponderance of slow twitch fibers or one doesn't, nothing  to think about and decide to bring into effect selectively. 

They can be developed though and the link that I posted above states: 
  "by knowing what type of muscle fibers you have, you can tailor your training towards developing them to their maximum potential."

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Jon Eulette on 5/16/2018, 10:10 am

When I first learned about keeping the scapula down for more stability I made a conscious effort in my training to keep it in a natural down or flattened position against the ribs. Now it’s second nature so I don’t even think about it. So as long as it’s natural you’re good to go.
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by bruce martindale on 5/16/2018, 12:35 pm

This is interesting because I had always performed a simple lift with an  extended arm. Tensing the shoulder muscles wasn't in a he plan. I had excellent results with air, free, standard, rapid etc but mixed results in the 45. Worse yet perhaps was getting good results with inferior techniques.

Further details of how you do it is appreciated. I know it has become subconscious so though is required 

Thanks

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Jon Eulette on 5/16/2018, 12:40 pm

Bruce, old school was relaxed shooting style with more lean. Modern style is more tension in the body. Not that you were inferior. Bigger caliber (45) requires more muscle to be consistent. I can shoot a 45 using girly grip and relaxed body, but I have to work harder to be consistent. Loose equals  flyers. 
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by mikemyers on 5/16/2018, 1:44 pm

My brother has a "rotator cuff" injury, and has trouble with his right arm.  Apparently it is getting worse, over time, and he likely will need surgery.  Does that mean he should not shoot at all, any more, until after the surgery, and if so, how much after?

I don't know how these muscles and other body parts intertwine, but I know it's a serious problem, and it takes a long time to fix and heal.
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by AllAces on 5/16/2018, 2:31 pm

mikemyers wrote:My brother has a "rotator cuff" injury, and has trouble with his right arm.  Apparently it is getting worse, over time, and he likely will need surgery.  Does that mean he should not shoot at all, any more, until after the surgery, and if so, how much after?

I don't know how these muscles and other body parts intertwine, but I know it's a serious problem, and it takes a long time to fix and heal.
Over the past 20 years I have had problems three times with rotator cuff and impingement. The first time an Army surgeon said I had three choices, do nothing, surgery followed by 12 weeks of PT, or no surgery and 12 weeks of PT. He said the surgery option was 50/50 chance I would be better. I chose PT and it worked for 10 years. The problem came back a second time and an experienced sports surgeon gave me the same three options. Again, I went with the PT. A couple years ago the problem came back. Again, 12 weeks of PT.
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by mikemyers on 5/16/2018, 5:45 pm

Thanks for the information.  I passed it on to him.  What is impingement?   Glad you are OK, and that the PT was enough to keep you going.  Were you able to keep shooting, or was that out until the PT was completed - or was shooting included as part of the PT ?
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Chris Miceli on 5/16/2018, 5:46 pm

AllAces wrote:
mikemyers wrote:My brother has a "rotator cuff" injury, and has trouble with his right arm.  Apparently it is getting worse, over time, and he likely will need surgery.  Does that mean he should not shoot at all, any more, until after the surgery, and if so, how much after?

I don't know how these muscles and other body parts intertwine, but I know it's a serious problem, and it takes a long time to fix and heal.
Over the past 20 years I have had problems three times with rotator cuff and impingement. The first time an Army surgeon said I had three choices, do nothing, surgery followed by 12 weeks of PT, or no surgery and 12 weeks of PT. He said the surgery option was 50/50 chance I would be better. I chose PT and it worked for 10 years. The problem came back a second time and an experienced sports surgeon gave me the same three options. Again, I went with the PT. A couple years ago the problem came back. Again, 12 weeks of PT.

Did you keep up with the exercises over the years ?
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by james r chapman on 5/16/2018, 6:28 pm

Of course not, that's why mine keeps returning
Must be a clue there...
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by jmdavis on 5/18/2018, 9:44 am

Jon Eulette wrote:... Loose equals  flyers. 
Jon

That's for sure.
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by james r chapman on 5/18/2018, 11:17 am

Seeking clarification, scapula down, against ribs.
Any pictures of shooters doing this?

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Jon Eulette on 5/18/2018, 12:38 pm

Won’t see it in a pic, but watch a High Master.....they’re doing it.
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by mspingeld on 5/18/2018, 1:18 pm

Here's the way I understand this. Stand in shooting position. You can raise your arm up and down, using only the shoulder, and still keep the arm parallel with the floor. That movement is the shoulder blade (scapula). You can also extend the arm toward the target or pull it back in, again using the shoulder blade. Another way to demonstrate is by pinching both shoulders in toward the middle of your back.

The recommendation, again, as I understand it, is down and in.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by bruce martindale on 5/18/2018, 6:25 pm

An old Marine and good shooter always said to push to the target but that's not what I am hearing here. The elbow can be firm without pushing correct? Then comes the shoulder; if you watch Keith Sanderson, you'll see his shoulder up adding firmness. My son and I have had good results there...then you have the scapula which as Mike describes, can be pulled in to the center of the spine. I think I like that. So,...for the other Masters that took the firm route, is that what you do?  Contrast that to ladies methods...another interesting area of study. I traditionally took a soft shooting stance, but it isn't working for me anymore...especially in sustained fire where my recovery in larger calibers has been poor of late.  Thanks all

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by 10sandxs Yesterday at 6:58 am

mikemyers wrote:Thanks for the information.  I passed it on to him.  What is impingement?   Glad you are OK, and that the PT was enough to keep you going.  Were you able to keep shooting, or was that out until the PT was completed - or was shooting included as part of the PT ?

My impingement was in the super spinatius. It's a group of ligaments/tendons (not sure which is correct term) that runs under the scapula to the uper arm bone and is one of the groups that helps raise your arm. My scapula was more curved than "normal" and when my arm raised, the arm bone would "impinge" on my scapula and pinch the ligaments. This resulted in significant irriration and eventually a "super spinatius decompression" surgery which was essentially grinding off some if the scapula to make more room for the ligaments to pass. A decade later and I am happy to say I have zero shoulder issues. I still do the PT occasionally, but more for strengh than for discomfort.

My one of PTs, probably the most effective, both before and after surgery was to sit at a table with my upper and lower arm at 90 degrees and rotated a little bit away from my body and shoulder initially relaxed. I was then to imagine pulling my shoulder "forward and in" toward my chest and spine without moving the arm or scapula. It takes a bit to isolate the muscle, but if you hold your other hand over your shoulder, you'll feel it just above your scapula, and possibly a bit more toward the spine. 

It's a small group, it is NOT the big group that runs from the back of your neck to your shoulder, not the one you see in a mirror, and not the one that makes weight lifters look like they have no neck. That's easy to see/feel during the excercise and if you do feel it, your doing it wrong. When you place your other hand on your shoulder with your palm on the big muscle group poorly described above, and your finger tips on your scapula, you should feel the muscle tighten about your first knuckle joint, where Zins advocates putting the trigger.

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