Shoulder effect

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Shoulder effect

Post by bruce martindale on Tue May 15, 2018 9:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

l don't see too much discussion regarding the effect of the shoulder, especially will the 45.

Sub calibers shooting seem to allow a natural lift and shoulder position but this may not be good for heavier recoil. Generally no muscle use.


What are thoughts on using muscles to push the arm out and to lift and stiffen the shoulder?

Seems to work well

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by mikemyers on Wed May 23, 2018 9:01 am

Thanks again - forwarded...
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Amati on Thu May 24, 2018 10:00 pm

Is there a good video that delves into the BE stance in very clear anatomical detail? 
The bone position and the muscle tension of the wrist, the elbow, the shoulder, the neck etc. 

If not a video then maybe a book with good drawings, anatomy 101 style? If I remember correctly the Yur'yev book gets into that (for rifle?) but mine was borrowed never to be returned.

It is easy to say "go watch the Masters do it" but for one thing those body parts are generally covered under jackets etc. and for another there aren't that many Masters shooting near me.

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by bruce martindale on Fri May 25, 2018 9:36 pm

I don't think Many shooting skills are visible and then there is the mental process. Even when asked, many Masters are so subconscious that they aren't even aware of what they do let alone tell you in detail about it.  One guy, a HM said " l pick it up, point it at the target, and pull the trigger" My experience 

Thanks

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Magload on Tue May 29, 2018 9:37 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Arm up not out Wink
Shoulder is hinge. Rigid arm lifted up then settled. Most experts and below don’t do this very well. Looks like noodle arm. Makes Gigantic Difference!
Jon
That is why I was thinking of changing my forum name to Ragarm.  I just flutters in the breeze.  Don
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by LenV on Tue May 29, 2018 10:10 pm

I just reread this from the beginning in case I missed something. I have never worried about my shoulder blade or a rag arm lift. I have never worried about it because even with a .22 I go into lockup on the command "ready on the right" I lock my elbow by rotating my wrist and arm clockwise (right handed) until my palm is facing up then only rotate my wrist back to firing position. Wrist muscles get locked when rotated back in position. From there you are pretty much committed to a straight up lift. I confess to being a little lax sometimes on that in 22 SF but it is part of my routine for all CF/45. 

Len
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by mikemyers on Tue May 29, 2018 10:49 pm

I may try that, but what I've read is that one should not have their elbows locked.  I'm not sure how to get my wrist "locked".  Lately I haven't been "locking" anything.  I think I read that this was better, as more of your body absorbs the impact when the gun fires.

With arms locked, all that energy goes right through the arm, into the ret of your body, right?
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Jack H on Tue May 29, 2018 11:30 pm

Ya know your core area has a roll in holding the pistol up and out too.  My core area has not been the same since back surgery at LL4,5.  Luckily I legged out before the back went out.
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by bruce martindale on Wed May 30, 2018 9:50 am

Clockwise for RH shooter is ok, it puts theelbow bending axis up and down. CCW gives a side to side bending and with heavier recoil, damages the elbow. Yes it is stiffer but recoil goes straight to the elbow and shoulder. AMU at the last SAFS l went to said don't do that...unless you want a short career. Thanks

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Axehandle on Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:25 pm

Really enjoy reading this stuff...

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by CR10X on Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:38 am

I may try that, but what I've read is that one should not have their elbows locked.  I'm not sure how to get my wrist "locked".  Lately I haven't been "locking" anything.  I think I read that this was better, as more of your body absorbs the impact when the gun fires.

With arms locked, all that energy goes right through the arm, into the ret of your body, right?

Here is my opinion and suggestions.  

Quit reading and start watching good shooters who are shooting precision pistol.  One hand shooting is different, both in stance and lack of additional transitions when shooting.  

You can't "lock" the wrist joint, but you can develop muscles to hold it in place consistently.  You can get the arm positioned as straight as possible, extended so the upper and lower arm is as in line as possible, call it locked if you want to. (Some people have elbow joints that can go "over center", just find out what gets you a consistent, stable arm.  "Bent elbows" is generally not for precision pistol. Find out if "extending" the arm from the shoulder or "compressing" the arm from shoulder works best for you in developing the smallest wobble area. 

Yes you want all the energy possible to be through the arms so it can be absorbed throughout the body.  That means setting up so that you are as "behind" the gun as possible without inducing additional stress in the neck, shoulders and chest area. 

Don't be surprised if the position changes slightly as muscles and ability develops through exercise and shooting.

Reminder, the stance starts from the feet to the head.  Feet firmly planted and weight evenly distributed across the entire foot.  Think of the body weight resting "bone on bone" for all the joints and bones from ankles, to knees, to hips, to spine, to neck and head. It should not feel like you are expending energy just to stand in position.  Energy goes to grip, arm, shoulder to raise and support the gun as the weight slightly shifts and re-stabilizes as the gun is raised into position.

YMMV.  Just remember, if you don't get the results you want doing what you are already doing, then why keep doing the same thing? 

CR

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by mikemyers on Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:21 am

Thank you.  When I wrote what I did, I was thinking two-handed, as that's so natural for me.  For one-handed, I don't have any habits yet, good or bad, and I'm not yet getting any results.  I return to the USA in a week, and start.  If I want to follow your advice, which all sounds very "obvious" now that you've said it, and I want to watch (which I do), maybe this will be a good starting point:

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Wobbley on Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:52 am

It’s amazing.... precision pistol basics being taught by an “action pistol Star”.
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:04 am

I've noticed that the harder I work at bullseye, the luckier I get at combat.   jocolor
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by mikemyers on Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:56 am

I've been practicing one handed for a couple of weeks now.  I can finally hold my pseudo pistol and wrist weight up for a full minute, part of my 30-minute on/off practice sessions.  But, as the last line in the video said, holding the gun out in front of you with one hand is the hardest part of Bullseye.

Question - can all of you hold out your gun in front of you, for a little over a minute, and be just as solid/stable/still at the end of that time, as when you started?  

(My muscles used to turn into jelly long before the minute was up; now they start to feel like rubber bands, but I can last the whole minute, for 10 cycles.)
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by chopper on Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:16 am

Mike, I watched Sandersons video and my hold excercise is similar to his and Ed Halls. I cock the pistol and get my stance, grip, and all just like dry-firing and grip that pistol really tight while keeping sights aligned on vertical or horizontal lines for 1 minute then pressure and actuate trigger slowly. Yes I shake like hell, but that's because I grip it so tight and I'm breathing while doing it. The pistol steadies for a short time while pressuring the trigger and I actuate it, I feel successful if sights are steady for the shot on the line. 1 minute on 2 minutes rest 10 times a session once or twice a day, then do your regular dry-fire training. Doing this holding exercise really burns and firms those muscles on the inside of the forearm and helps lock up the wrist and elbow. I also do about 2 of these holds and a couple dry-fires before shooting live ammo seems to get me warmed up.
 Stan

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by mikemyers on Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:44 pm

Interesting, that's mostly what I started to do, but I got bored with a two minute rest so I cut that in half.  My main goal was to get strong enough to hold my gun out front, and I added two 1.5 pound wrist weights back then.  Now, with only one hand, I'm using just the one weight.

Your hand started shaking because of gripping the gun so hard?  I'm not that good yet - my hand now shakes as it's approaching one minute, just from the weight of my pseudo-gun and the wrist weight.


I found out something fascinating half an hour ago.  I'm never been sure where my feet should go.  I played back Doug's video again, and he wants 45 degrees from the gun to either foot!  That means my feet are 90 degrees apart from each other.  So, I tried it - right foot pointing at my target, and left foot pointing to my left, and my body at 45 degrees.  Wow!!  I haven't figured why yet, but that made my "gun" much, much steadier.  No comparison.  Now my sights actually stay lined up, and don't "quiver".  My feet feel a little uncomfortable, but I'll get used to that.  

I used to aim at a target while doing this.  It sounded very logical.  But after a lot of reading here, I gave up on that.  All I do is concentrate on the sights, while pretending to apply pressure where my trigger would be, without disturbing the sights.  In my mind, the only thing that counts is my sights, and if I did have a target, it would be too close to me to be blurry.  (I'm hoping when I get home and pick up a real gun, I'll be infinitely better than this home made contraption I built!)
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by mikemyers on Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:01 pm

By the way, it looks like Doug is shooting a Model 41, but it looks like a lot of work has been done to it.  Any idea what those parts are?  He's still wearing his S&W shirt, so maybe some of that was from the S&W Custom Shop?
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by Jack H on Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:59 pm

mikemyers wrote:By the way, it looks like Doug is shooting a Model 41, but it looks like a lot of work has been done to it.  Any idea what those parts are?  He's still wearing his S&W shirt, so maybe some of that was from the S&W Custom Shop?

Also looks to be with a Lombardi barrel.
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by mikemyers on Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:49 pm

I was writing back and forth with my brother, who has some kid of shoulder injury - he thinks it is a torn or ripped rotator cuff injury.  Then I got to thinking, if he attempted to shoot one handed, all the weight of his gun and arm would be going through that shoulder, which seems like an impossible scenario until he gets it repaired.   :-(


Also, CR10x wrote "Just remember, if you don't get the results you want doing what you are already doing, then why keep doing the same thing?"         ..........for me, having only shot two handed before, everything now is "new".  All bad habits are gone. New habits have yet to be formed.  
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by chopper on Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:57 pm

Mike glad to hear you have something to use overseas better than nothing at all. When you line up to the target try to line your body about 45 degree to target or something close, you'll change this when you bring the pistol up to target. The reason for the body and feet is stability, lining your side to target your shots string left or right on target line up facing target your shots go up or down on target. I line my feet about 40 degree to each other, more comfortable that way. 
 But more important than anything for me is trigger control (No. 1), grip (No. 2) but they go hand in hand for me. Even if you want to stay with shooting 2 handed those two things are important. When my scores tank I find those two things are at fault so that's what I train on in the basement, again, amongst other stuff. 
 Stan

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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by LenV on Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:31 pm

Mike this is just for you. Never be in a place again that you can't keep up the training. It takes some work to get the trigger under 4 lbs.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=bb+shooting+clothes+pin&view=detail&mid=912112999F702D44E938912112999F702D44E938&FORM=VIRE
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by mikemyers on Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:11 am

LenV, cute!!!!!   Unlike my creation, this one actually works!!!!!!


Here's what I've done to the pseudo-gun....

The toothpick front sight looks skinny in this photo, but my eye is much further back than my camera, so the "front sight" visually has a realistic size and shape.  I had to photograph it this way to get my camera to focus on the front sig...  er, toothpick.  Black tape around the toothpick is because I don't have a black magic marker here.



Mobile phone case, packed with coins for weight, with a Pachmayr 1911 grip on the front, a small ruler taped to the case such that the grip angle is that of a 1911, and what used to be a business card at the correct distance from the rear sight for a 1911 (so I could use this device to get my shooting glass prescription); now the business card is cut away, and it has a toothpick to act like a front sight.  Rear sight is made from cheap black plastic electrical tape, that needs to be squeezed into the right shape every time.  Between this weight, and the 1.5 pound wrist weight, I hope it simulates my Salyer.  No "trigger"; I just press on the rubber in the grip with my trigger finger.  The main goal now is to maintain and build strength in my right arm.  Before I used it for two arms, using two wrist weights.
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Re: Shoulder effect

Post by mikemyers on Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:23 am

chopper wrote:Mike glad to hear you have something to use overseas better than nothing at all. When you line up to the target try to line your body about 45 degree to target or something close, you'll change this when you bring the pistol up to target. The reason for the body and feet is stability, lining your side to target your shots string left or right on target line up facing target your shots go up or down on target. I line my feet about 40 degree to each other, more comfortable that way. 
 But more important than anything for me is trigger control (No. 1), grip (No. 2) but they go hand in hand for me. Even if you want to stay with shooting 2 handed those two things are important. When my scores tank I find those two things are at fault so that's what I train on in the basement, again, amongst other stuff. 
 Stan
Stan, I'm tired of returning from my twice-a-year trips, having lost most of the strength in my right arm.  Yes, better than nothing.  

I'm confused about what you wrote about 40 degrees between feet.  That's comfortable for me, and that's how I've been practicing until yesterday, and the front of my pseudo-gun is anything but stable.  It wanders a lot.  I tried exactly what Doug said - feet are now 90 degrees apart.  Front foot facing target, left foot facing to my left, and my body at 45 degrees between either.  I was astonished to feel like my "gun" now felt like it was on a camera tripod!  It just stayed put!   I've proved to myself that it isn't just my imagination.  I don't understand exactly why, but doing it this way, my gun feels even more stable than two handed.  

Trigger control....   I understand, and I can work on that again once I get home.  Not sure if it's hurting or helping me, but when I put pressure against the rubbery Pachmayr grip with my trigger finger, it used to push the "gun" all over when pressing the "trigger" and then releasing it.  With nothing else to do, I decided to learn how to keep the sights lined up despite this.  Not sure if it's giving me a terrible habit, or if it will allow me to do better with a real trigger, but now I can do it "properly".
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