2018 rulebook

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2018 rulebook

Post by Chris Miceli on 5/17/2018, 9:17 pm

Here it is

http://rulebooks.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/Pistol/pistol-book.pdf
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by joy2shoot on 5/17/2018, 9:50 pm

Downloaded.  Thanks for posting the link.

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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by russ69 on 5/18/2018, 12:30 am

Hope that's not the final draft? Page 9 has some anomalies.
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by james r chapman on 5/18/2018, 4:56 am

russ69 wrote:Hope that's not the final draft? Page 9 has some anomalies.

Specifics please!
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by cdrt on 5/18/2018, 8:12 am

The paragraphs are out of order/missing and there is someone's email address inserted, that does not belong there.  It appears they tried to eliminate the Production division and got it all messed up.

Someone needs to proof read the darn thing.  They still did not get the correction to 3.11, which I emailed them about a couple months ago and that they said they would fix.  Hint, it is not there, got moved to a different section, but try and find it.

Update: sent them an email to proof read page nine and fix 3.11.
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by Slartybartfast on 5/18/2018, 8:51 am

Ugh. Page 9 is a mess.
As technical writing is my profession it pains me to see such a egregious error go to print.

Jumping from 2 to 3.1? Then it seems it's info from elsewhere that was misplaced? Ouch.

And pagination and formatting is all over the place. Not being familiar with the previous book, maybe some of the poor choices are historical.

And is there no change table?

Another quibble: headers and footers should have section and revision information on each page.

Going to be a lot of work to get that all back into shape.
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by Chris Miceli on 5/25/2018, 10:42 am

just noticed the 2018 rule book, was replaced by the 2016
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by Wobbley on 5/25/2018, 11:07 am

Chris Miceli wrote:just noticed the 2018 rule book, was replaced by the 2016

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by apipeguy on 5/26/2018, 8:40 am

Thanks for posting. As a shooter for over forty years but mainly fast, defensive, two hand shooting (retired LEO) I am just starting to try bullseye shooting and this will help me quite a bit. So far I love it.
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by ted.carter.568 on 5/27/2018, 4:22 pm

The 2018 Precision Pistol rules are posted online.  I did not see anything  re. 2016.  There were no NRA Board approved changes for 2018.  The 2017 rules which eliminated the Production Div, and rewrote Sec 3 have been included, except, that there are numerous administrative errors that many of you have already noted and sent comments to NRA.  Paragraph 1. and 2. in Section 3 should be deleted.  NRA staff has been notified.  Additionally, Sec 17, did not include addition of Collegiate Natl Records, and should have.  NRA staff said they would correct online, however it may not be corrected in the printed rule book for Camp Perry Pistol Competitors.  Additionally, there are as noted multiple formatting errors and the record of changes has been omitted.  Your constructive comments to NRA staff are needed.  Many new folks in Competitions, and they are still getting settled in.

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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by jmdavis on 5/27/2018, 7:34 pm

I submitted several Collegiate National Records last September. They did not appear in the printout sentbfor the regional that I am running next weekend,
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by Slartybartfast on 5/31/2018, 10:40 am

Okay, first off I write rules and procedures for a living. I've served on the BoD of provincial organisations.

Now, I made the mistake of asking myself a question and jumping into the rulebook looking for answers. And doing that, reading the NRA rulebook where I thought necessary to try and figure out how things work has just made me feel stupid.

What follows is kind stream-of-consciousness, so my apologies. My frustrations at not being able to quickly grasp something that seems so simple to explain once unravelled may colour my opinion. So:

900/1800/2700 seem simple enough.

But where in the rulebook and how does it arrive at the course of fire for a 900?

So I find 900. Which is not in courses of fire (7) it's in National Records (?!? 17).

How did I find it? Text search. The table of contents confusingly has a section for .22 calibre only aggregate matches. But where are the others?

So, 900 is 20 slowfire (what target?, what distance?), 20 timed (what target?, what distance?), 20 rapid (what target?, what distance?), then NMC, SC, or Gallery course.

Okay, I assume 30 shots from either of those. Where are they? Oh! Those are in "Courses of Fire", but no table of contents entry.

There are so many titles that they don't have the decency to number, and organisation seems to be lacking. Or at least there's no way to jump in and assume a logical division. You need to read the whole book and then remember where things were. If you get lost, going to the beginning of a list doesn't help you. There are tiles in the MIDDLE of the lists?!?

So, Section 7 gives NMC, SC, and Single course definitions. But the single course definitions are given in unnumbered Indoor and Outdoor courses which are unnumbered under Section 17. NATIONAL RECORDS (Reaction: WTH?). But if you read all the way through you MIGHT notice the link in the opening paragraph.

A rulebook that is a sole reference (in absence of handbooks that organise various functions and rules in order and reference the rulebook), that cannot be followed and understood by looking at either the table of contents or an index is an abject failure. A rule book that doesn't have every title and paragraph numbered is an abject failure because it makes creating handbooks and references a nightmare.

Am I missing where to download NRA competition guides?

Other thoughts: Without numbering, HTH do they track revisions and history? This is why a lawbooks or bylaws become an random assemblage of paragraphs and numbers with "repealed" next to them.

The individual rules are simply written and added at the end and struck off rules are removed but their numbering remains. As such a complete history of the individual entries can be followed. 

To know how to follow the laws/rules (without reading them all and mentally trying to unravel and organise everything), you need interpretation documents. Those are ordered in a logical fashion referencing all the relevant articles.

I'd offer my services, and I'm willing to work on some sort of trade-in-kind basis.

I'd start with a brand new empty document with clear formatting and build it by copying the rules from the old...

Would competitors and officials be willing to pay a nominal cost for an electronic reference that orders and clarifies the rulebook?
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by Slartybartfast on 5/31/2018, 10:48 am

Back to page 1 now.

1.0 NRA Competition says that a competition is a tournament
1.1 Sanctioned Tournament says that a tournament is a series of matches.

BUT

1.6 Types of Tournaments infers an International Match is not a "match" but a tournament.

(c) National Championships or National Matches?!? First sentence changes the name?

By (g) we've now had "sanctioned", "registered', "approved", and "authorized" which is it? Or how do they differ? And they seem to have to link back to 1.2 and 1.5 somehow...

by page 3, the NRA Distinguished Revolver Match is a "Match" that is actually a tournament that consists of a specific "match".

Now, a match is an event (why?!? how does this help?). A stage seems damned close to being what is defined as a "course of fire". But looking forward to page 18 the NMC is a single course of fire with three sepearate... What? 

I give up. Enough of a headache for one morning.
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by jmdavis on 5/31/2018, 11:01 am

While I've never been happy with the rule book. It is much more understandable if you read it in its entirety rather than looking for answers to specific questions the first time around. 

It is also much more understandable once you have shot a match or two. There will be people at the match who know the rules and they will help you. It would be impossible for a non-shooter to rewrite the manual in a more understandable format.

Go to a match. Watch it. Heck, shoot it as 22 only. You will better understand the rules at that point.
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by Slartybartfast on 5/31/2018, 12:02 pm

jmdavis wrote:While I've never been happy with the rule book. It is much more understandable if you read it in its entirety rather than looking for answers to specific questions the first time around. 

It is also much more understandable once you have shot a match or two. There will be people at the match who know the rules and they will help you. It would be impossible for a non-shooter to rewrite the manual in a more understandable format.

Go to a match. Watch it. Heck, shoot it as 22 only. You will better understand the rules at that point.

I don't disagree. But still makes it a very bad rule book.
It really shouldn't be that difficult to write clear and concise rules that can be easily understood.

It should be re-written by someone who doesn't have too much familiarity with the rules or sport. Why? So they ask questions and those familiar with the rules (or how they are interpreted) will need to explain them in a way anyone can understand.

It's how you explain complex electro-mechanical systems to users and maintainers. A passing knowledge of design, use, and repair couled with a good grasp of organisation and the skill to rephrase and organise questions from one group for the other.

A good writer with no knowledge at all of firearms or shooting sports should be able to take the rulebook as-is and re-organise it and identify the ill defined and contradictory parts.
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by Blsi2600 on 5/31/2018, 12:23 pm

Are you going to do it?

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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by Slartybartfast on 5/31/2018, 1:02 pm

Blsi2600 wrote:Are you going to do it?
The bigger problem than doing it, is always getting people who are prepared to discuss it.

I had actually already started an exercise of re-writing/re-formatting the WA-1500 rulebook. Just for my own interest I may start the exercise with the NRA book.
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by Jack H on 5/31/2018, 1:34 pm

Slarty - you describe exactly what I have been trying to do with my club's policy manual.  The hardest part is to get the people that should be involved, involved.

On the rule book, the experienced shooters that accept the mess you describe don't allow for the new person with no clue.  Plain words, organization and format are a must.  The NRA should be shamed into a redo.

While I am at it, there are in my opinion way to many rules about teams, residency, and age groups, etc.  I wish they would lighten up on that.
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by Slartybartfast on 5/31/2018, 3:14 pm

Jack H wrote:Slarty - you describe exactly what I have been trying to do with my club's policy manual.  The hardest part is to get the people that should be involved, involved.
I've been on a number of rules committees. My experience is no one shows up for the discussions, but the entire membership shows up to bitch and moan and try to shout the vote down when the rules come before the BoD for approval.
I learned early that to change rules, change them at the beginning of the year, then by the next General Assembly the generalised hate dissipates. Change something too close to the General Assembly and you're almost guaranteed to lose the vote, revert to the old rules, and face a huge challenge to keep your position on the BoD.
The joy of months of meetings debating line by line and everyone agreeing by vote to each line to result in a majority voting against all the rules as a whole...
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by cdrt on 5/31/2018, 4:42 pm

My main complaint is not with the rules themselves, but the fact that when we let them know that there is a problem with a certain section, they never fix it.

I let them know that the index is incorrect when you look up "gloves" and was assured that it would be fixed in the next revision.  Of course, it is still incorrect.

I sent the NRA an email through the main website to complain that no one is taking the needed fixes to the Precision Pistol Rule Book very seriously and pointed out the train wreck on page 9.   I received an automated response that someone would call me within two days.

Crickets...........
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by Slartybartfast on 6/1/2018, 8:26 am

cdrt wrote:My main complaint is not with the rules themselves, but the fact that when we let them know that there is a problem with a certain section, they never fix it.
Did a search for "NRA Pistol Committee", found a link to an article that includes a contact email:

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/5/31/2017-nra-precision-pistol-program-update/ wrote:The NRA Pistol Committee welcomes competitor input on current rules. Comments, including recommendations for any changes or clarifications can be addressed to the Pistol Committee via NRA at Pistol@nrahq.org.
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by cdrt on 6/1/2018, 8:53 am

Slartybartfast wrote:
cdrt wrote:My main complaint is not with the rules themselves, but the fact that when we let them know that there is a problem with a certain section, they never fix it.
Did a search for "NRA Pistol Committee", found a link to an article that includes a contact email:

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/5/31/2017-nra-precision-pistol-program-update/ wrote:The NRA Pistol Committee welcomes competitor input on current rules. Comments, including recommendations for any changes or clarifications can be addressed to the Pistol Committee via NRA at Pistol@nrahq.org.

I've used that email before and they are the ones who said they would fix the problems I pointed out.  Figured if I sent an email through the system, it might get noticed.  So far, nothing.  I am tempted to send a snail mail letter and see if that gets a response.
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by Chris Miceli on 6/1/2018, 9:06 am

contact the Pistol Manager, Karie Thomas at kthomas@nrahq.org, 703-267-1478.
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by cdrt on 6/1/2018, 9:48 am

Chris Miceli wrote:contact the Pistol Manager, Karie Thomas at kthomas@nrahq.org, 703-267-1478.

Just had a nice conversation.  Karie said the hard copy is mostly correct, except for the gloves rule in the index, which was not corrected. Page 9 of the hard copy does not have that guy's email address. The first printing she had done was messed up (all 400 copies) so she had them redo it and they are in printing now. They did not give her the hard copy back to proofread before it went to printing.

I pointed out that the online copy is incorrect on Page 9 and she did not realize that. She said she would get the online copy corrected asap.

They did eliminate the Production Division and there is just Open and Metallic.
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Re: 2018 rulebook

Post by Slartybartfast on 6/1/2018, 10:40 am

Here's a curious point I found when starting to read the rule books from the beginning:

In the BB, Black Powder, and Pistol rule books:
The arrangement and rule numbering systems are such that corresponding rules for other types of NRA competition are correspondingly located and numbered in the Rule Books for those competitions. Gaps in the sequence of rule numbers result from there being a rule in one or more of the other Rule Books that does not apply in this book.

Rule 3.3 in the BB rule book:
3.3 External Modifications - A single layer of tape ...

Rule 3.3 in the Pistol rule book:
3.3 Distinguished Revolver - The revolver must be capable of chambering ...

Rule 3.3 in the Black Powder rule book:
3.3 - 3.6 - Blank 

So, yes there are "Blank" sections in some rule books, but the idea they line up is quickly dismissed by inconsistencies.

IMO, what is needed is one master file with all the rules. This file would be the one that is revised and updated. Each individual discipline would then be an extraction of this masterfile.

This may be how things began, but obviously the current rule books have all diverged from each other at some point.

These rulebooks (the master and discipline specific) would be maintained and organised in "legal" fashion. Every paragraph numbered, new rules get added to the end of a section or end of a subsection or end of sub rules. Sections and subsections, rules and subrules never get reorganised.

If rules are removed, the sections become "blank/repealed" in the master file and all discipline files.

Handbooks could then be produced for each discipline and each role. Rewritten and organised in plain English to be as clear as possible to all. With all entries referenced to the rule books.
(Like the effort in this thread: http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t9780-an-example-complete-single-outdoor-900-nra-precision-pistol-stage-is-this-summary-complete-and-accurate)

It's a difficult and thankless job maintaining rules, so I hope anyone involved reading this doesn't take my comments personally or as derogatory or overtly critical. I'm as critical of my own work when I come across the errors and omissions I find later.
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