Let's talk trigger

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Let's talk trigger

Post by jmdavis on Fri May 18, 2018 7:40 am

I have spent 9 months trying to master a medium-long roll. I do ok with shortline, but long line is much worse than my Curtis wad gun which has the tiniest bit of roll.  My 45 long line scores almost always exceed my 22. And at 50' the roll on this conversion is giving me fits. 


At this point, my thought is to shorten the roll to short and perhaps to replace the long trigger with a medium. I shot Jon's unfinished long slide in 45 and I liked that trigger. It was medium length, short roll I think. I also shot Jon Shue's conversion which I think is over 3.5 lbs with a very smooth long roll. I only shot it at 25 yards though in timed and rapid at a clinic.  A couple of more details, the donor frame for my conversion is an SA Range Officer, that I have switched to a Flat Mainspring housing, KC trigger kit, 19 lb hammer spring, and Sharkskin grips. I am pretty happy with the 3.5+ lbs of pull, just not the length of roll(?), and overall length.  

At this point, I start to doubt the ability of non-supported shooters to shoot long roll guns. I don't think that its impossible, but maybe not likely. At best I can live fire 2x per week and dryfire 3 or 4x. 

So what thoughts do people have? How long did it take for you to master a longer roll? I have heard that no 2650+ shooters currently shoot a completely crisp trigger. Based on the guns of 2650+ shooters that I have tried, I can't argue with that.
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Re: Let's talk trigger

Post by jglenn21 on Fri May 18, 2018 9:10 am

just my experience coming from shooting in the 70s with crisp triggers... I tried the long roll and simply can't get my mind around it.. no matter what I think it's a creep.  I converted all my trigger to short roll and like it a lot.

even converted my trailside with a 2 stage to a short roll like pull.

try the short roll and see if you like it..  I'd only change one thing at a time..



bottom line shoot what you like and what works..
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Re: Let's talk trigger

Post by SonOfSwede on Sun May 27, 2018 6:49 pm

I have four of KC's trigger kits in different frames.  Even though 3 of the frames are the same size from the same manufacturer, all 4 feel different.  One has a short roll and one goes on forever.  KC says that is typical due to small differences in the frames.

How are people adjusting the length of the roll.

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Re: Let's talk trigger

Post by rreid on Sun May 27, 2018 7:07 pm

Keep after it.  Dry fire as much as you can.  I've been using as long a roll as you can get with KC's parts for a little over a year, and I'm starting to see some results.  It seems like the slightest error in trigger control will put a shot out in the white, but if I can pull through correctly the shot will be inside my call.
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Re: Let's talk trigger

Post by Ed Hall on Sun May 27, 2018 9:05 pm

Part of the problem with inexperienced "trigger pullers" is thinking slow has an advantage.  Find out what it feels like to dry fire without looking at the sights.  Learn to make a determined start to finish operation in a quick manner and recognize what the roll feels like with a rather fast and determined manipulation.  Then learn how to accept what you see and replicate that operation when you fire against a target.

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Re: Let's talk trigger

Post by john bickar on Sun May 27, 2018 9:29 pm

Mike,

Are you sure 9 months was enough?
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Re: Let's talk trigger

Post by john bickar on Sun May 27, 2018 9:55 pm

Ed Hall wrote:make a determined start to finish operation in a quick manner and recognize what the roll feels like with a rather fast and determined manipulation.  Then learn how to accept what you see and replicate that operation when you fire against a target.

Decisive. Smooth. Short duration.

I was taught, “as soon as the target quivers, MASH IT.” That means “smooth and determined manipulation”, playing on Ed’s words.

Smooth is fast. 10 seconds is a lot of time.

Trigger, trigger, trigger.
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Re: Let's talk trigger

Post by Allgoodhits on Mon May 28, 2018 4:48 pm

john bickar wrote:
Ed Hall wrote:make a determined start to finish operation in a quick manner and recognize what the roll feels like with a rather fast and determined manipulation.  Then learn how to accept what you see and replicate that operation when you fire against a target.

Decisive. Smooth. Short duration.

I was taught, “as soon as the target quivers, MASH IT.” That means “smooth and determined manipulation”, playing on Ed’s words.

Smooth is fast. 10 seconds is a lot of time.

Trigger, trigger, trigger.

What they said  ^ ^ .

We have varying degrees of fine motor skills. In addition to learning the mechanics of trigger manipulation, one must also learn the rate or speed at which their fine motor skills are best suited to pressing a trigger. It may vary, between the differing poundage of pressure need to cause the gun to fire.

Here is an example.  Place several pairs of dots on a piece of paper spaced 5 - 8 inches apart.

Take a pen/pencil and scribe (freehand) as straight a line as possible connecting the dots, one pair at a time. Try connecting the dots quickly, and try doing it very slowly. It will not take too many attempts at this exercise for you to realize that the straightest, least jagged line will not be the very fast one, or it will not be a very slow one. It will likely be the line, which was drawn, when you were decisive at the onset, smooth in execution and short in duration of the movement. Give it a shot, clearly pun intended.
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Re: Let's talk trigger

Post by jmdavis on Mon May 28, 2018 6:16 pm

john bickar wrote:Mike,

Are you sure 9 months was enough?
No, I definitely am not sure. All I know is that I perform better with the Curtis 45 than the 22. Earlier today I shot 100 rounds of shortline practice. 4 out of the black and a big  hole in the center of each target. 60 rounds on the first and 40 on the second. I started to enjoy putting the rounds though the fist size hole. I followed that practice with a reverse NMC, rapid, timed and slow ( slow at 50 yards). That turned out to be a personal best, period. My best 22 was a 291-10 using the benelli mp90 when I was shooting it. ZToday was a 292-11 with the 45. 

I can break 850 with either conversion or wadgun, but it seems easier with the wadgun, more of my shots are on call at both 25 and 50. That said, I’m a sharpshooter for the NRA, but averaged expert with the 45 in reduced matches at Rivanna in C-ville for winter league. The Cutis gun is almost crisp, but there is a very short roll before it breaks.  The main problem  is the smoothness, the roll on the conversion is not smooth, or at least not smooth like Shue’s conversion.  

My next match won’t be until June 23. I will be dryfiring the conversion a lot. I feel like it’s too late to change at this point. I have 1-2700, the state match, and Canton before Perry. 

Sorry for the long winded answer.
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Re: Let's talk trigger

Post by TomH_pa on Mon May 28, 2018 7:25 pm

Speaking as an inexperienced pistol trigger puller, what's hard to understand is how fast is fast
Where does squeezing the trigger end and picking off a shot begin?
When I here squeeze, I think "skaaawweeeezzzee" but I guess it should just be squeeze ( couldn't figure out how to type it compressed)

So perhaps as fast as possible without moving the gun from straight and level?

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Re: Let's talk trigger

Post by Jon Eulette on Mon May 28, 2018 8:10 pm

In my opinion most shooters don’t really understand trigger pull until they hit high expert to master scores. You don’t typically get there without honest training. Miceli breaks that norm ;|)
You have to train slow medium and fast trigger squeezing to know (see/feel) what differences are. It takes many hours of practice. When you get really good at it you can move the trigger very fast (mash it like Bickar) and shoot well. There is a tendency for lower level shooters to not be committed to really squeezing the trigger and then they force the shot. Types of trigger pulls are individualistic; crisp vs roll of some sort. You have to squeeze them the same! There’s no secret, just lots of hard work dry firing and live fire to verify your dry fire training is working. Make a plan and stick to it. It takes several months to really know if what you are doing works or not. I made a small change to my thumb when gripping. Took 6 months to get used to the change. Jason just shot 2626 with a trigger he’s not happy with this weekend. But he paid attention to committed shots and application of fundamentals. So that’s a great example of performance over ideal/perfect trigger job.
So if you’re not truly training you can’t realistically expect to get any better than a plateau you might have reached. You want different results than you have to do something differently. 
Jon
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Re: Let's talk trigger

Post by orpheoet on Mon May 28, 2018 8:43 pm

Sort of on topic...I just started shooting a Pardini SP with a 2 stage trigger and it is DEFINITELY taking some getting used to. I find the 2 stage trigger illuminating regarding the 'shoot the first x you see' advice that I've seen from a few High Masters. Commit to the trigger indeed!
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Re: Let's talk trigger

Post by john bickar on Mon May 28, 2018 8:58 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:When you get really good at it you can move the trigger very fast (mash it like Bickar) and shoot well. 

Sadly, “Mash it like Bickar” doesn’t have the same ring or cachet as “Bend it like Beckham,” and my bank account proves it.

I always interpreted “mash it” like mashing potatoes (or avocados for guacamole now that I’m a Californian). Not fast, not slow, but forcefully with intent.

I’m not going to finesse a potato, I’m not going to hold the masher against it and gradually increase pressure against it until it miracles itself into a mashed potato - I’m gonna mash the thing.

This is a good conversation; it’s tough to put a tactile concept into words.
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Re: Let's talk trigger

Post by Jon Eulette on Mon May 28, 2018 9:45 pm

orpheoet wrote:Sort of on topic...I just started shooting a Pardini SP with a 2 stage trigger and it is DEFINITELY taking some getting used to. I find the 2 stage trigger illuminating regarding the 'shoot the first x you see' advice that I've seen from a few High Masters. Commit to the trigger indeed!
Pardini 2 stage is way different than other pistol  2 stage triggers. In my opinion much harder to shoot SF with. I gave up on mine because I never could get a feel for it. 50/50 good and bad shots. Very frustrating. Good luck with it.
Jon
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Re: Let's talk trigger

Post by bruce martindale on Tue May 29, 2018 1:33 pm

Have to separate methods for roll, crisp, and 2 stage. Mashing a 2 stage from point zero is a disasterin my opinion, same with crisp, l think most would drive right off the page. I did find l could be faster on a long roll but risk lower finger motion changing point of aim. YMMV. I had good luck starting slower and building speed later but lately I need a total rebuild...

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