From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Go down

From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by Founder on 7/17/2012, 7:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

I grabbed this off the Discussion Group and thought I would share. I heard the same message from a number of sources while at Camp Perry and think there are some good ideas in here.


From the competitor's meeting Friday, Dennis Willing said they are more expensive to use, I believe the figure was $10K. But it might be academic. We had problems with ranges 3 and 1 during the week due to the poor condition of the turning target system which is approaching 70 years old. Dennis said he anticipates worse problems next year if nothing is done so is in the process of fast tracking a solution which would be replacing the current system- which would be about $400K or the shocker - going to an electronic system which is under consideration. This would be about 150 units on range 4 and they think they could process everyone through those positions in 2 days including teams. This would open up the other ranges to other types of matches during the week, to try and attract other shooters. This would be about $1.5 million and the CMP has expressed an interest to go in 50%. Dennis also indicated this might allow covered firing positions! He said to get the word out he would like feedback from shooters. Would you be more or less likely to attend if there were electronic targets and you could go for 2 days to complete the NRA matches, and shoot other types of matches - pop up targets, glock/SW etc. stock gun matches, team matches (father/son etc.) Make your opinions known to NRA/Dennis or Tom Hughes as they want to do something before the current system fails totally. Don Pane
avatar
Founder
Moderator

Posts : 569
Join date : 2011-06-09
Age : 55
Location : Lodi, WI.

http://www.bullseyeforum.net

Back to top Go down


Targets

Post by Chicago1952 on 11/15/2013, 4:12 pm

SteveT wrote:I don't buy the argument that Perry shouldn't change until all clubs have electronic targets. I bet there was a time when few ranges had turning targets.

The National Matches should set the highest standards for how a match is conducted.
I would agree with you.  I have junior shooters that can shot on paper as well as electronic the fundamentals don't change.

Chicago1952

Posts : 7
Join date : 2013-11-14

Back to top Go down

Re: From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by Rob Kovach on 11/15/2013, 4:28 pm

Again Chicago,

The debate really isn't whether to have electronic targets at the National Pistol match. It's whether we have NON-TURNING electronic targets at the National Pistol match with an unspecified electronic signal that indicates when official time to fire begins and stops.

When you insert the way electronic targets are used for different sports into this discussion, you are essentially advocating for Conventional Pistol to BE A DIFFERENT SPORT.

Part of Bullseye is the sustained fire portion, and the way the targets turn to indicate when it is time to start shooting and when they edge to indicate when time is up.

The National Matches should set the highest standards for how a match is conducted. For Conventional Pistol, an electronic sensor in the target doesn't add anything to that standard--so don't waste the money.
avatar
Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2571
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 43
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by Chicago1952 on 11/15/2013, 7:07 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:Again Chicago,

The debate really isn't whether to have electronic targets at the National Pistol match. It's whether we have NON-TURNING electronic targets at the National Pistol match with an unspecified electronic signal that indicates when official time to fire begins and stops.

When you insert the way electronic targets are used for different sports into this discussion, you are essentially advocating for Conventional Pistol to BE A DIFFERENT SPORT.

Part of Bullseye is the sustained fire portion, and the way the targets turn to indicate when it is time to start shooting and when they edge to indicate when time is up.

The National Matches should set the highest standards for how a match is conducted. For Conventional Pistol, an electronic sensor in the target doesn't add anything to that standard--so don't waste the money.
I guess the Army Marksmanship Unit at Fort Benning, Ga has wasted their money along with other venues with the same target equipment.  Fort Benning is considered to have one of the highest class ranges at the national level as well as in the world.  I guess also the hundreds and sometimes thousands of competitors that shot at their national matches every year are wasting their money.  The competitors train and compete on electronic target, but adapt to any target they have to compete on.

Chicago1952

Posts : 7
Join date : 2013-11-14

Back to top Go down

Re: From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by Rob Kovach on 11/15/2013, 8:09 pm

Chicago,

None of the other disciplines that already have electronic targets are BULLSEYE or Conventional Pistol. None of those disciplines use turning targets EVER. Bullseye does.

Do you understand the difference now?
avatar
Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2571
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 43
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by Rob Kovach on 11/15/2013, 8:45 pm

Look at some of the pictures of marksmen who are shooting at electronic targets.  It's people with $3500 rifles and $1000 jackets and fancy pants that cost more than my first .22 bullseye pistol and shoes that cost more than an ultradot scope.
 
I just can't see how those electronics are compatible with this sport.
 
I like shooting on rainy, windy days at open firing points exposed to the elements.  We don't shoot bullseye because it is easy--for most of us, we do it because it is hard.  Because it is so hard, every X is so very rewarding.  That is why I shoot bullseye.
 
I found a picture of the 300 yard range at Ft. Benning and I see wind blockers going all the way downrange.
 
Again, Bullseye isn't rifle shooting.  We can't change the National Pistol match to some quasi indoor, non-turning electronic target system without creating what is essentially a different discipline.  It sounds like a description of ISSF/Olympic pistol to me.
 
That's not my vision for the future of Bullseye.  I bet I can outshoot most of those ISSF shooters with a 4lb trigger shooting hardball out of a 1911.


Last edited by Rob Kovach on 11/15/2013, 9:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
avatar
Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2571
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 43
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by Rob Kovach on 11/15/2013, 9:28 pm

Chicago 1952 wrote:The competitors train and compete on electronic target...
If the only electronic targets used for Bullseye are the temporary targets that are only in use for 1 week in July at Camp Perry, Ohio, how are the competitors going to train?
avatar
Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2571
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 43
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by Chicago1952 on 11/16/2013, 7:27 am

Rob Kovach wrote:Chicago,

None of the other disciplines that already have electronic targets are BULLSEYE or Conventional Pistol.  None of those disciplines use turning targets EVER.  Bullseye does.

Do you understand the difference now?
Yes, I do because all the disciplines including yours is shot at the AMU venue.  Now do you understand?

Chicago1952

Posts : 7
Join date : 2013-11-14

Back to top Go down

Re: From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by Rob Kovach on 11/16/2013, 8:10 am

So you are telling me that the AMU venue holds Bullseye, NRA Conventional Pistol matches on turning targets with electronic sensors?
 
I wasn't able to see any photos of CF or .45 shooters firing on electronic targets at Ft. Benning in my searches online.
 
Chicago 1952 wrote:Yes, I do because all the disciplines including yours is shot at the AMU venue.
If you were a bullseye shooter you would have said "all the disciplines including ours is shot at the AMU venue."
 
Your posts seem to indicate that you are a rifle competitor.  Maybe you just haven't been shooting bullseye enough to appreciate how much easier it is to get the timing right for rapid fire when the target turns.
 
I don't know if "Chicago" indicates that you are from Illinois.  If it is, I invite you to shoot at the next match at Aurora Sportsmans Club in Waterman IL.
They have old fashioned turning paper targets, open firing points, and plenty of wind.  The last match I shot there was a ton of fun.  15mph sustained winds with 30 mph gusts, rain, and sleet.
It is very rewarding to make a good shot with a .45 in those conditions!  You can't get that in a facility that is shielded from the elements enough to protect a CRT target display.

Therefore you can't shoot an outdoor bullseye match in a facility like you are describing Ft. Benning's AMU range.  It's just not the same.

This invitation is open to ANYONE who is interested in trying.  If you don't have equipment or ammo, I will lend you what you need.  I guarantee it will be a fun time.
avatar
Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2571
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 43
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by Chicago1952 on 11/16/2013, 11:48 am

Rob Kovach wrote:So you are telling me that the AMU venue holds Bullseye, NRA Conventional Pistol matches on turning targets with electronic sensors?
 
I wasn't able to see any photos of CF or .45 shooters firing on electronic targets at Ft. Benning in my searches online.
 
Chicago 1952 wrote:Yes, I do because all the disciplines including yours is shot at the AMU venue.
If you were a bullseye shooter you would have said "all the disciplines including ours is shot at the AMU venue."
 
Your posts seem to indicate that you are a rifle competitor.  Maybe you just haven't been shooting bullseye enough to appreciate how much easier it is to get the timing right for rapid fire when the target turns.
 
I don't know if "Chicago" indicates that you are from Illinois.  If it is, I invite you to shoot at the next match at Aurora Sportsmans Club in Waterman IL.
They have old fashioned turning paper targets, open firing points, and plenty of wind.  The last match I shot there was a ton of fun.  15mph sustained winds with 30 mph gusts, rain, and sleet.
It is very rewarding to make a good shot with a .45 in those conditions!  You can't get that in a facility that is shielded from the elements enough to protect a CRT target display.

Therefore you can't shoot an outdoor bullseye match in a facility like you are describing Ft. Benning's AMU range.  It's just not the same.

This invitation is open to ANYONE who is interested in trying.  If you don't have equipment or ammo, I will lend you what you need.  I guarantee it will be a fun time.
Whoever said this is going nowhere fast is correct.  Yes I am a rifle shooter, but I was also a pistol shooter for many years as well and I coach junior shooters to shot either discipline.  For me it is not about whether your a pistol or rifle shooter.  I am for promoting the sport irregardless what you shot.  My emphasis is promoting the sport for the next generation regardless of your discipline.

I don't how the media ever got the idea that the shooting community is one big united front as it isn't. It pains me to see the shooters from their respective disciplines look down on another discipline as this kind of division well be overtime our undoing.  We have enough enemies without these kind of attitudes.  I heard this kind of thinking when the first assault weapons ban went into affect.  I heard people in your community as well as the others saying will it doesn't affect me so why should I care.  Kalifornia felt safe enough to adopt an even stiffer magazine rule that effected every 22LR pistol that held a magazine.  They had to pass a temporary law change so that they could bid on the Olympics.  I learned over the years it is not the Sarah Brady's I have to worry about it is certain attitudes in the shooting communities.  When Diane Feinstein said "if she could she would have banned everyone of them.."  she meant it.

I loved shooting pistol for many years and I was progressing reasonably well in both until I developed a nerve problem in my arm and neck.  I shot on both your type of events as well as the ISSF type of events on both paper and electronics.  However, it was a hard choice for me to give pistol up for now.  I probably could have started training with my other arm, but I don't have the income now days to make changes to my pistol grips.   I had hoped that the therapy I am going through would help, but all it is doing at best is to slow down the shakes I get which worsen when I try to hold any type of weight.  There are times I can't even hold a spoon without developing the shakes. 

The only joy I get now days with pistol is to try and coach the next generation.  I have helped one of my former juniors make it to the Olympics pistol event and another one to be on the national team and he is improving enough that he will probably make it to the next Olympics.  Coaching these kids is more important to me then arguing over something that will led to nowhere.  While, I have been coaching we have had to go through many rule changes including moving back and forth on paper and electronic targets and we ultimately had to adapt if we wanted to continue competitive shooting. We could have and we did sometimes cry and yell about things, but ultimately the changes came about and it was better for us to spend our time and resources training to adapt to the new changes.  Although we did win sometimes on some of the rule changes but mostly they were just on some of the minor rules were we won.

You can believe me or not it doesn't matter to me.  I feel I have wasted enough time as your not going to change your opinion and your not going to change mine .  No I am not from Chicago it's just a nickname a Chief Petty Officer gave me when I was in the Navy as he had a hard time pronouncing my name.

Chicago1952

Posts : 7
Join date : 2013-11-14

Back to top Go down

Re: From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by Rob Kovach on 11/16/2013, 12:09 pm

We can't have outsiders telling us that we should change our sport to some other variation of ISSF because it's for our own good and the overall good of shooting sports.

We are advocating for the survival of Bullseye as a sport.  Bullseye is unique.  If we change Bullseye to a fundamentally different game, then Bullseye is dead--not by lack of participants, but by our own doing.

I can't see how eliminating (or changing) the sport of bullseye does anything to grow shooting sports.

I hope your arm get's better, Chicago.  My offer to you still stands.  All of my guns are 1911 frames with slabs so you can shoot them with your left hand.  Much different feel than what you've been used to.  Lobbing .45s 50yards into the X is VERY rewarding.
avatar
Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2571
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 43
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by Chicago1952 on 11/16/2013, 1:29 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:We can't have outsiders telling us that we should change our sport to some other variation of ISSF because it's for our own good and the overall good of shooting sports.

We are advocating for the survival of Bullseye as a sport.  Bullseye is unique.  If we change Bullseye to a fundamentally different game, then Bullseye is dead--not by lack of participants, but by our own doing.

I can't see how eliminating (or changing) the sport of bullseye does anything to grow shooting sports.

I hope your arm get's better, Chicago.  My offer to you still stands.  All of my guns are 1911 frames with slabs so you can shoot them with your left hand.  Much different feel than what you've been used to.  Lobbing .45s 50yards into the X is VERY rewarding.
All the changes are occurring from the governing body of each discipline and not from the outside.  Nobody is advocating eliminating the sport, but the shooting community in every shooting sport has seen a decrease in participation nationwide in every shooting sport with the exception of shotgun.  These used to be just a feeling with me but it has been verified for me by the last competition director at the NRA.  Competition is being taught in our schools as a bad thing and is one of the contributing factors in the participation.

1911s are still my favorite pistol, but I had been mostly just shooting combat course with that gun.  I say had been as my resources

Chicago1952

Posts : 7
Join date : 2013-11-14

Back to top Go down

Re: From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by mpolans on 7/19/2016, 8:23 am

So whatever happened to the whole upgrade idea?

mpolans

Posts : 87
Join date : 2016-05-27

Back to top Go down

Re: From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by DavidR on 7/19/2016, 8:41 am

NRA doesn't want to spend the money, most likely the nationals will be moving to the cardinal center soon. imo anyway. Perry is in a bad state of disrepair and no one does anything about it. I heard range 4 was broken down in the very start of the competition  this time too. How can something that is only used for a short period of time each year not get fixed in the abundant amount of off time? Shocked
avatar
DavidR
Admin

Posts : 2956
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 62
Location : NRA:Expert, Georgia

Back to top Go down

Re: From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by dronning on 7/19/2016, 9:09 am

DavidR wrote:...I heard range 4 was broken down in the very start of the competition  this time too. How can something that is only used for a short period of time each year not get fixed in the abundant amount of off time? Shocked

I shot on 4 and it broke down several times during the week.

- Dave
avatar
dronning

Posts : 1241
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 63
Location : Lakeville, MN

Back to top Go down

Re: From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by ChipEck on 7/19/2016, 8:45 pm

dronning wrote:
DavidR wrote:...I heard range 4 was broken down in the very start of the competition  this time too. How can something that is only used for a short period of time each year not get fixed in the abundant amount of off time? Shocked

I shot on 4 and it broke down several times during the week.

- Dave
True.  I shot just a few places down from Dave.  We also had several stoppages for Eagles on the range.
However I went to the CMP's indoor air pistol rifle range....I went every day.  All I can say is WOW.  Talk about a state of the art facility!  I guarentee I will be there every day next year as well!

Chip
avatar
ChipEck

Posts : 129
Join date : 2015-11-15
Location : Wisconsin

Back to top Go down

Re: From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by jmdavis on 7/20/2016, 10:22 am

I enjoy air pistol and bullseye and highpower for that matter. I too spent some quality time at the airgun range. But 10m air pistol isn't Bullseye, even when we shoot a 30 shot course of fire. 

Based on my 10m scores, I would probably do better with e-targets than I do with turning targets. BUT, so what. I want to shoot turning targets and I prefer to do it in the same place that over 100 years of National Championships have been held. 

Did anyone get a chance to shoot on the e-targets that were being installed on the left end of Petrarca?
avatar
jmdavis

Posts : 932
Join date : 2012-03-23
Location : Virginia

Back to top Go down

Re: From the Competitors Meeting at Camp Perry 2012

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum