RMR on a wad gun?

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RMR on a wad gun?

Post by tvphotog on Tue May 29, 2018 4:33 am

I don't see any wad guns with an RMR red dot, just Ultradots. The latter are so much heavier, I wonder what's the reason for the use of the Ultradots over the RMR's for bullseye.

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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by Chris Miceli on Tue May 29, 2018 4:40 am

Cause tube style aimpoints and ultradots are better. A lot of bullseye shooters like weight on the slide as well. Look at the old heavy ribs from the iron sight days.
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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by mikemyers on Tue May 29, 2018 6:17 am

Chris Miceli wrote:......A lot of bullseye shooters like weight on the slide as well. Look at the old heavy ribs from the iron sight days.
Chris, I've read that in so many places, I know it's what a lot of shooters want, but I always wondered why they prefer a heavier slide.  I came up with a few possibilities - that it adds weight to the gun, that might make it more stable, that it adds weight to the gun to resist the gun rising so much from recoil, or maybe that they themselves are more steady when holding something that weighs more.

Can you explain the real reason?  

For me, the heavier the gun, the more my muscles start to "shake", and the less time I can hold it up.  Both are improved with a lighter gun.  That's the reason I dry-fire with two 1.5 pound weights, one on each wrist - and why I'm holding a plastic baggie with heavy books in it out in front of me, while I'm away from home.  But that's me - there must be a good reason why others prefer it.  Maybe that's also the reason why there are weights available to attach to a S&W model 52 and other guns.  Nobody has yet given me a good answer.

One of these years, or decades, I'll know what *I* want to do, and why.  In the meantime, I figure emulating what I read in this forum to be very useful, even when I don't understand why it makes sense.  Eventually I learn the "why".
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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by Chris Miceli on Tue May 29, 2018 6:35 am

its a feel thing. try firing a frame/grip mount dot and slide mount. see which you like. Could try a iron sight gun vs slide mount.
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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by zanemoseley on Tue May 29, 2018 6:40 am

I far prefer tube style dots (I run 9000sc's) on a slide mount. They help keep the recoil way less snappy. I have to run hotter loads than my old frame mount Les Baer but the recoil is more pleasant as its not snappy.

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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by zanemoseley on Tue May 29, 2018 6:41 am

Also the reflex style sights can be easy to lose the dot as there's no visual tube to get your eye lined up. I have one on my Steyr air pistol and while I like the quality of the dot it can be easy to lose even on an air pistol, I can image it would be quite the challenge on a 45 with rapid fire.

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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by Wobbley on Tue May 29, 2018 7:11 am

The reason for the heavier slide by adding ribs or dots was to control the slide velocity. It is the slide velocity as it impacts the frame that gives the “snap” to the recoil impulse. Shoot a S&W 25 with your Bullseye load and you’ll see the difference. The revolver has recoil but it’s not as snappy as a 1911.

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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by Jack H on Tue May 29, 2018 7:14 am

And with the tube Ultradot, you can add the Norman Ring at the rear.  Looks like I should clean the lens.




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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by zanemoseley on Tue May 29, 2018 7:21 am

What does the Norman ring do? Never heard of them.

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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by Jack H on Tue May 29, 2018 7:28 am

I just made the name up.  Based on member Norman's idea, the screw in rings work just as good. 
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/nwongmain/enhancer.html
For the 1" UD, I use the rubber rear cone and add silver elmarko to the rear edge of the cone.
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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by mikemyers on Tue May 29, 2018 7:48 am

Not to take away from anything being said, but Aimpoint claims to have eliminated parallax in their H-1 and H-2 red dot sights - I think in all of them.  Someone who is better than me can probably answer this better.  

What I can say, is my Aimpoint H-1 seems to do a better job of minimizing parallax than my Matchdot II...  unless it's my eyes playing some kind of trick on me.  I used to think the Matchdot II was "perfect", but in every way I can think of, the Aimpoint is better - well, other than the cost, I guess.

I guess I need to make a nice Lobster dinner, or find some other way of getting one of these.  I like the circle in a circle in a circle concept.
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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by Jack H on Tue May 29, 2018 7:58 am

The rear ring is more to find the dot, and serve as an sighting aid.  Yes the parallax issue is better, but to me that is secondary, even moot if you aim and hold better.
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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by LenV on Tue May 29, 2018 8:00 am

I have slowly went from mostly iron sights 6 years ago to mostly ultradots and now as time and money goes on I have been converting to Aimpoints. I tried the RMR route but like mentioned above recovery can be tough sometimes. They also suck in bad weather. A 9000 on the slide of a 1911 just mellows the whole recoil down. I have 10lb springs on the 45s. It just makes the 22s a little heavier but keeping the weight back/to the rear helps.

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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by mikemyers on Tue May 29, 2018 8:15 am

LenV wrote:........A 9000 on the slide of a 1911 just mellows the whole recoil down. I have 10lb springs on the 45s. It just makes the 22s a little heavier but keeping the weight back/to the rear helps.
Dave Salyer recently built a wad gun for a customer, with the 9000 on top.  He was telling me how heavy the gun felt.  I need (want) to buy one more H-1, H-2, or 9000....  I haven't even been considering the 9000 because of the weight.  I'm not sure what spring Dave put in my own gun (I know most things, but not that).  Whatever spring it might be, with the heavier slide do you make the spring stronger or weaker?  Since the slide is moving slower, I assume weaker is the proper answer.  If it was now a 12 pound spring, and the weight went up from an H-1 to a 9000, what might the spring need to be?  .......I need to build a spring tester like yours!!!

Nice photo!!!!!!  Beautiful!  I was looking at it in full resolution.  Wow.  When I clicked on "quote" to reply to your message, I think the original image you took showed up, no reduction in size.
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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by mikemyers on Tue May 29, 2018 8:36 am

Maybe these guys will send or sell me some:

https://www.rubberband.com/products/92/lobster-and-crab-rubber-bands

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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by zanemoseley on Tue May 29, 2018 9:58 am

I plan on running my 9000sc's till my arm can't take it anymore then go to micros. I'm 35 so hopefully have 10-15 years of heavy scopes left in me.

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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by Jack H on Tue May 29, 2018 10:22 am

I have noticed gun weight in recent years.  I used to run my High Standard Trophy bull barrel with a 6oz weight 45+ years ago.  Now age and shoulder surgery later, such gun weight, especially with dots, is near impossible to hold up and still.
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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by Tim:H11 on Tue May 29, 2018 10:58 am

My wad gun wears a 1” Ultradot and tube extension. Feels nice to me. Everybody has their preference. I do however think Aimpoint is the better quality optic but my Ultradot works well enough... and I’m cheap.
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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by Magload on Tue May 29, 2018 5:35 pm

Just got a email from KC he is building my 38 Super and asked what load and scope I was going to use so he could get it set up.  I said 125gr Dardus RNFP over 3.2gr of BE was what I was loading now.  I said I would probably put a Matchdot II on it to start out but would be going to a 9000SC.  He didn't think the gun would cycle with that heavy scope and I would have to up that load a lot.  Waiting to see what he says i don't mind going with a heaver load as I have a 9000SC on my LB and really like it.  Don
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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by Jack H on Tue May 29, 2018 5:37 pm

I have 2 nice Aimpoint Comps.  The blue one is my first ever dot sight.  I stopped using them as the window is too big.
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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by LenV on Tue May 29, 2018 6:44 pm

Magload wrote:Just got a email from KC he is building my 38 Super and asked what load and scope I was going to use so he could get it set up.  I said 125gr Dardus RNFP over 3.2gr of BE was what I was loading now.  I said I would probably put a Matchdot II on it to start out but would be going to a 9000SC.  He didn't think the gun would cycle with that heavy scope and I would have to up that load a lot.  Waiting to see what he says i don't mind going with a heaver load as I have a 9000SC on my LB and really like it.  Don
38 Super 125gr Zero (JHP) .356 with 4.6gr Bullseye. KC probably right about not cycling with 3.2gr. I didn't increase the load to make it cycle. I increased it because it was way more accurate. It was something I had trouble explaining to a fellow shooter my last match. He was scoring me and was wondering about switching to a Super. He asked me if it had less recoil. I said no, not really. Its a different recoil but not lighter. Then why shoot it he asked. I told him because it was fun. That is why we do this. Right?



Last edited by LenV on Tue May 29, 2018 10:03 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added JHP to info)
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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by Magload on Tue May 29, 2018 8:03 pm

If it wasn't fun it would be called work and I retired from that many years ago.  I ordered a Ultra Dot to try.  I like my Matchdot IIs and have 6 of them.  the Ultra is .3 oz less then the Matchdot II and 2.6oz less then a 9000SC and a whole lot cheaper.  I will try the 4.6 of BE as I don't mind recoil. First I need to see what KC comes up with a set up and he said he would look into a load for the gun.  That is great service.  Don
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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by mikemyers on Wed May 30, 2018 12:59 am

Magload wrote:If it wasn't fun it would be called work and I retired from that many years ago.....
Check out the light weight Aimpoint red dot sights, H-1 and H-2.  Extremely light, compact, durable, battery lasts seemingly "forever", and has a beautiful view - they claim with no parallax.  If you put it on a 1911 though, you would also want the Kodiak mount.  The standard mount that comes with it will loosen up, and may eventually break.  (The photo below is with the standard Aimpoint mount.)  Jon's advice was to get the Kodiak from KC, which I did a week or so after getting the sight.   (...and the "slot" in the rail may need to be opened up.)

I was doubtful when I ordered mine - wasn't sure if I was just wasting money, but to me, the sight is far superior to what I've seen from any other sight.  (Never seen a 9000, but I don't think my body would like that.....  I haven't seen that many other sights, so maybe there are others equally as good, but everything I read pointed me to Aimpoint, if I could afford it).
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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by Mac2 on Thu May 31, 2018 6:05 am

Not everyone has the strength to hold pistol plus heavy sight.  The Venom or even RMR (at twice the price) can be the friend of those who are strength-challenged.  Additionally, with a light "reflex" sight mounted low into the slide, finding the dot is more easy because the dot appears just where the iron sights would be (at least for a pistol that POINTS).  Put another way, with a low, light-weight dot just where it should be (and not up in the air as seems to be the case from pictures shown) re-acquiring dot in timed and rapid is more easy even with additional recoil due to competitor being strength-limited.

The RMR people even have a mounting plate that includes "iron" sights, which should make re-acquiring the dot in timed/rapid more easy.  . . .add an almost 9mm 1911 such as DW's Commander slide/Officer-light-weight-frame and a strength-limited competitor has a chance of making it through a long match.

RMR sight has a role in Bullseye - maybe just not for strong folk.

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Re: RMR on a wad gun?

Post by Chris Miceli on Thu May 31, 2018 6:14 am

Mac2 wrote:Not everyone has the strength to hold pistol plus heavy sight.  The Venom or even RMR (at twice the price) can be the friend of those who are strength-challenged.  Additionally, with a light "reflex" sight mounted low into the slide, finding the dot is more easy because the dot appears just where the iron sights would be (at least for a pistol that POINTS).  Put another way, with a low, light-weight dot just where it should be (and not up in the air as seems to be the case from pictures shown) re-acquiring dot in timed and rapid is more easy even with additional recoil due to competitor being strength-limited.

The RMR people even have a mounting plate that includes "iron" sights, which should make re-acquiring the dot in timed/rapid more easy.  . . .add an almost 9mm 1911 such as DW's Commander slide/Officer-light-weight-frame and a strength-limited competitor has a chance of making it through a long match.

RMR sight has a role in Bullseye - maybe just not for strong folk.

KC cut and aimpoint micro if you want it low.
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