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Natural sight alignment

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Chris Miceli
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Natural sight alignment Empty Natural sight alignment

Post by oldsalt444 Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:36 pm

An essential fundamental is sight alignment.  I've heard of natural point of aim, adjusting your stance to get centered on target; but natural sight alignment has to do with your grip.  How do you go about achieving a natural sight alignment?  It seems to me that the sights won't just drift by themselves back into natural alignment and some minor "muscling" needs to happen.  Or am I wrong?
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Post by mikemyers Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:54 pm

You will probably get lots of better answers from others, but I was told to close my eyes for a bit, and see what changed when I re-opened them.  Eventually I found out how to get things to stay closer to what I thought they should be.

I still have to work at it, thinking about, and making sure all parts of my body are where they ought to be, so there is minimal change when I keep my eyes closed.
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Post by dronning Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:39 pm

Read section B. POSITION
Chapter 1: Army Marksmanship Training Guide



AMU Pistol Guide Foreword

- Dave
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Post by Olde Pilot Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:09 pm

Very interesting to see that Shue, Markowski and other top AMU shooters are not using the stance shown in the AMU Training Guide. They're 90 degrees to the bench.

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Post by dronning Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:51 am

Olde Pilot wrote:Very interesting to see that Shue, Markowski and other top AMU shooters are not using the stance shown in the AMU Training Guide. They're 90 degrees to the bench.
The manual talks about finding the position that gives you the most stable hold and is neutral.  Figure 1-2 looks more like a 90 degree stance than figure 1-4.
 
"It is necessary to make an intelligent approach to the problem of selecting the particular stance and position that is acceptable to oneself, taking from the experts desirable aspects and rejecting undesirable ones."

- Dave
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Post by Jack H Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:54 am

I will never never get this rotate business.  Never agree with it. 
There are other things that affect the alignment (with the eye). 
Head height, arm height, arm angle, cant, thenar push, etc.  all can be natural or trained into natural if needed to align the sight to the eye. 

a. To assure the sights will stay in alignment, the following test is made: extend the shooting arm and observe the sight alignment. If the front and rear sights are out of alignment, grasp the barrel with the non-shooting hand, loosen the grip sufficiently to slide the pistol in the hand, rotating it slightly away from the direction of error in sight alignment. Re-grasp the pistol firmly and extend the arm. Check the alignment without an effort being made to align them by wrist or head movement. If the alignment is natural, you may check for maintenance of sight alignment. With the arm extended, close the eyes, raise and lower the arm and settle. Open the eyes and observe. If the alignment has deviated, reposition the pistol in the shooting hand and repeat the closed eye test until natural alignment of the front and rear sights is achieved and maintained. During shooting, a constant check should be conducted of the tendency of the sights to continue to align themselves. The grip obtained at the beginning of shooting will not necessarily remain correct because the jolting recoil and build-up of fatigue will require correction to the grip to maintain sight alignment.
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Post by Tim:H11 Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:30 am

I think there are many different ways to go about achieving sight alignment in the easiest repeatable manner and where some of us may take the position of “this way and that way is wrong and it should be done like this” I think in the end it only matters that you are able to repeat the process motion for motion, move for move, and make shots that are consistently in the same area on the page. If that is achieved, then all that’s left is adjusting the sighting system on the firearm to print where you want it to. 

I take up a grip not based on sight alignment but but based on control of the gun. I take a stance not based on sight alignment but what’s comfortable to me so I’m not straining my self, and so that I can comfortably recover from the shot and bring the gun back to target. Sight alignment for me is the position of my wrist that allows the gun to be presented in a manner where I can sight down the gun. 

Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I don’t do it like some have for decades but what I do works for me.
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Post by Wobbley Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:47 am

Jason has it right.  You have to build your own foundation.  What works for you is what works for you and is not necessarily the only way.

Getting “natural sight alignment” is affected by body build, grip and stance.  One will affect the other. The “ZinsGrip” is an example.  It is one way to grip the pistol.  This method will affect your stance.  Try it and see if it works for you.  It may work for a while then you may find it has a limit and you need to adjust something.  Then the grip may change and that affects the stance or the stance and that can affect the grip.  If it doesn’t then try another grip.

For a beginner, I’d start with a grip that’s comfortable and where the trigger finger is comfortable.
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Post by Jack H Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:09 pm

Now we are getting somewhere.  Individual indeed.

My "natural" left turned wrist angle seems to be the main thing for me to work around to get the sights lined up with my eye.  I can compensate with cant, higher head and arm (stand taller),  angle of arm off body.  Throw in a mix of things to manage recoil and set my feet to address the target.  I do not want any thoughts of forcing the sights into alignment or onto the target.

I also believe that if I were to strengthen the muscles of my forearm that will pull my wrist angle to the right, my natural wrist angle would improve.  The old rope on a stick thing or tennis would do fine.
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Post by jmdavis Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:08 pm

Olde Pilot wrote:Very interesting to see that Shue, Markowski and other top AMU shooters are not using the stance shown in the AMU Training Guide. They're 90 degrees to the bench.

Then it would also be interesting to see that other National Champions including one who has won more than any other are not bladed to the bench. I kind of think that body type, age, and flexibility have something to do with it. 

But the key is to find something that is repeatable for you.
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Post by mikemyers Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:26 pm

Another point of view, completely described, from a very capable shooter (it's already posted somewhere in this forum):
       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqFn9AU7les
I am trying, in dry-fire and at the range, to follow Doug's advice, as it is so easy to replicate.  Unfortunately, my arm/muscles and my trigger finger are much more difficult to replicate.......
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Post by Chris Miceli Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:51 am

i don't think doug is a bullseye shooter. Maybe he was?

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Post by Allgoodhits Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:59 am

Chris Miceli wrote:i don't think doug is a bullseye shooter. Maybe he was?
Doug is a professional shooter, there is no money in Bullseye, which one could earn enough to make a living. He can however, shoot, one handed, two handed, prone, rifle, shotgun and even archery. When Doug speaks shooting, one should at least listen. There is something to be gained for sure.
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Post by Chris Miceli Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:06 am

Allgoodhits wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:i don't think doug is a bullseye shooter. Maybe he was?
Doug is a professional shooter, there is no money in Bullseye, which one could earn enough to make a living. He can however, shoot, one handed, two handed, prone, rifle, shotgun and even archery. When Doug speaks shooting, one should at least listen. There is something to be gained for sure.
Better off listening to those who have mastered this sport. Precision pistol is its own beast.

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Post by DeweyHales Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:55 pm

Line the pistol in your hand such that when you raise your arm the sights are aligned. 

Then, line your body up to point at the center of the target.
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Post by james r chapman Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:41 pm

DeweyHales wrote:Line the pistol in your hand such that when you raise your arm the sights are aligned. 

Then, line your body up to point at the center of the target.

also known as the "KISS" method..
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Post by Toz35m Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:39 pm

We have often heard the term Natural Point of Aim.  I think this more applies to Rifle shooting where you have a structured position and a little adjustment to a body part will change the point of aim.

I like to think pistol has a natural area of aim.  For me the angle of my feet to the line does not change this for me.  The most important part of the natural area of aim is the grip and how it can rotate in your hand.  Zins show how to help align the sights to your eye.

Positioning your body to the line at 90 degs helps your body absorb the recoil and aids recovery for the following shot.
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