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Improving slow fire score?

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Wes Lorenz
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Mike38
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Post by Mike38 Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:31 pm

First topic message reminder :

What can I do to improve my slow fire scores? Dry fire more often, yes, I should do that. But there must be something I'm missing. With a .22, right now my average SF score is probably around 78, and my timed and rapid scores are probably around 92. If I could get my SF scores up to match those on the short line, I would make Expert. I had a high master give me some advise on SF a few months ago. Basically he said treat each individual SF shot as I would the second shot of sustained fire. While bringing the sight down onto the target, start applying pressure on the trigger, and when timed just right, the shot will break when the front sight is at the six o'clock position. Don't over think, don't wait for that perfect sight picture, send the shot. Ok, that helped some, but what else can I do? Thanks.
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Post by Wes Lorenz Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:51 am

Chris Miceli wrote:i find no value it returning back to black in slow fire (unless i'm going for 2-3 shots), just wasting time and energy. Some it seems to be a must though.
Hi Chris & all,
A very good Navy coach talked me into mentally approaching 50 yards with the same mindset as T & R. I know it helped me shoot very well because it develops good follow thru and grip tension during slowfire. Follow up shots are normally perfect.
His training paid back beautifully at Perry one year in between wind gusts (two 5 shot strings scoring a 99-3 and signed by Col. Pitts!).
This may help some, being a visual person, I just pretend I am shooting down a tube the size of the 10 ring and try to not get any angular dispersion.
Additionally here's some of the best advice my first coach gave me when I started:
"The bullseye is there to distract you from doing what you need to do" and "if you want a 10, shoot a 10."
Hope this helps,
Wes

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Post by DGW Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:16 pm

I had a Marine corps coach say " If you dont shoot it on the way in your late" and " be deliberate " I see myself in Timed and Rapid when the shoot is there I shoot it but in slow I try to think Deliberate and not wait for it to get better. when its there shoot. provided I dont jerk it

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Post by john bickar Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:54 am

Another point that I don't think has been mentioned in 3 pages of this thread is physical fitness. Strength and stamina will allow you to hold smaller for longer, giving you a better window in which to squeeze the trigger smoothly and aggressively within your optimum arc of movement.

Core and upper body strength training, along with cardiovascular endurance training.
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Post by bdas Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:34 pm

john bickar wrote:Another point that I don't think has been mentioned in 3 pages of this thread is physical fitness. Strength and stamina will allow you to hold smaller for longer, giving you a better window in which to squeeze the trigger smoothly and aggressively within your optimum arc of movement.

Core and upper body strength training, along with cardiovascular endurance training.
Do you have particular exercises that will specifically help to hold smaller for longer?

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Post by CR10X Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:22 pm

I would suggest training to complete the trigger during the time your wobble is approaching the minimum rather than training to try and hold smaller for longer.  That just seems like it could lead to holding too long past the minimum wobble time / condition.  

CR

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Post by Mike38 Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:53 pm

john bickar wrote:Another point that I don't think has been mentioned in 3 pages of this thread is physical fitness. Strength and stamina will allow you to hold smaller for longer, giving you a better window in which to squeeze the trigger smoothly and aggressively within your optimum arc of movement.

Core and upper body strength training, along with cardiovascular endurance training.


Good point. For the past month I've been riding a bicycle with my Son, 30 to 40 miles a week. Good exercise and have fun doing it. Actually entered in a 27 mile race this Sunday. Hope to survive. bounce
Mike38
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Post by Chris Miceli Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:59 pm

john bickar wrote:Another point that I don't think has been mentioned in 3 pages of this thread is physical fitness. Strength and stamina will allow you to hold smaller for longer, giving you a better window in which to squeeze the trigger smoothly and aggressively within your optimum arc of movement.

Core and upper body strength training, along with cardiovascular endurance training.
Is this some kind of con to get people out and running ?

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Post by Aprilian Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:46 pm

Mike38 wrote:



Good point. For the past month I've been riding a bicycle with my Son, 30 to 40 miles a week. Good exercise and have fun doing it. Actually entered in a 27 mile race this Sunday. Hope to survive. bounce
I hope you have a Benelli bike  lol!
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Post by john bickar Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:26 am

Chris Miceli wrote:
Is this some kind of con to get people out and running ?

No, if I wanted to do that, I would just place a bottle of AMSOIL 26.2 miles from your current location.

Move over, Eliud Kipchoge!
john bickar
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Post by john bickar Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:32 am

bdas wrote:
john bickar wrote:Another point that I don't think has been mentioned in 3 pages of this thread is physical fitness. Strength and stamina will allow you to hold smaller for longer, giving you a better window in which to squeeze the trigger smoothly and aggressively within your optimum arc of movement.

Core and upper body strength training, along with cardiovascular endurance training.
Do you have particular exercises that will specifically help to hold smaller for longer?

Not specifically for that, just general upper body and core strength training, low weight, high reps. I have a set of 6 different exercises that I (try to) do daily that target shoulders, biceps, lats, chest, and core. 15 reps each exercise, with 10lb. dumbbells or body weight. Takes me about 10 minutes. And I bicycle around 7 miles every weekday for my commute, ~30 minutes total; more if I swing by Safeway for beer on the way home.
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Post by john bickar Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:41 am

CR10X wrote:I would suggest training to complete the trigger during the time your wobble is approaching the minimum rather than training to try and hold smaller for longer.  That just seems like it could lead to holding too long past the minimum wobble time / condition.  

CR

Eh, potato, potahto. I'm not trying to make my hold smaller for longer; it just gets that way the more diligent that I am about PT. That, in turn, frees my conscious mind to focus more fully on squeezing the trigger during my optimum hold.

I'd be interested to compare my SCATT traces with other 2650-level shooters. I've never had a particularly good hold, but I do have a very educated trigger finger.

If you saw what my dot does, you'd pack up your guns and go get tested for Parkinson's.
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Post by Jon Eulette Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:09 am

When I was shooting on team with Darius ‘Doc’ Young I would watch him shoot sometimes. He was tall and had quite a bit of movement. But I remember him taking 4th in Free Pistol by 0.4 points in Olympics and shooting 2677. His trigger control was phenomenal.
When I was younger before tearing my shoulder I had a very good hold with so so trigger control and shot some good scores. Now I have great trigger control and zero hold because of the shoulder; can’t hold black at 50. Occasionally break 2600 now and it’s definitely not because of the hold. So my satisfaction now comes from the performance. If I shoot a straight in perfect 8 because of my failing hold but I called it an 8 I’m good with that because I physically couldn’t do any better. Yeah I abort a lot. My success also comes from repeatability of shot plan. It’s very simple and I just execute it. So make a plan and confidently stick to it until you know for sure it doesn’t work. 
Jon
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Post by PhotoEscape Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:58 am

+1 to JB on cardio/upper body and beer.  My routine is 2x/week (unfortunately don't have time for more) at LA Fitness for ~2 hrs.  30 minutes cardio on the mill with goal of 500+ calories burned and 2 miles distance at 15% incline, then weights with emphasis on upper body, arms and shoulders.  I also use 12.5 & 15 lbs dumbbells for three specific exercises, and they are very simple to do - 1. both arms lifted straight forward to 90+ degrees, dumbbells facing down, although I sometimes rotate them for 90 degrees; 2. same but sideways as far as you can spread arms so they are as close to 180 as possible, dumbbells facing down, no rotation; 3. alternating arms lifted at about same direction as your BE stance with rotation for 90-180 degrees.  Repetition is no more than 12 time in one session.  Also, stretch shoulders and arms before.  BE CAREFULL!!!  IF YOU PLAN ON DOING THESE, START WITH NO MORE THAN 4 LBS DUMBBELLS, OR YOU'LL BE CALLING CHRIS M FOR CONSULTATION REGARDING SHOULDERS REPAIR.  I do cardio and stretching every time, and rotate rest of exercises every 3-4 weeks.  No biking for me, - lumbar and thoracic issues, use couple machines at LA instead to strengthen spine and core.
AP
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Post by CR10X Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:23 am

If you saw what my dot does, you'd pack up your guns and go get tested for Parkinson's.

Same for me.  And I agree with all the exercise suggestions, I have my own exercise / weights / diet program as well.  Lots of core strength exercises. But I do shoot more consistently and better if I also train to keep the trigger moving and getting the shot off as I'm approaching that first minimum wobble area.  I just couldn't find a good exercise to significantly increase the minimum wobble time.  The wobble got smaller, but the minimum time seems to stay about the same.  So I settled on a combination of physical, shot process and mental training.

As long as the shooter is training on something and trying new things, there will be some improvement. Either in results, or in knowing what doesn't work or doesn't matter.

CR

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Post by john bickar Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:45 am

Here's a good exercise:

Begin by standing on a comfortable surface, where you have plenty of
room at each side.

With a 5-lb potato bag in each hand, extend your arms straight out
from your sides and hold them there as long as you can. Try to reach
a full minute, and then relax.

Each day you'll find that you can hold this position for just a bit
longer. After a couple of weeks, move up to 10-lb potato bags.

Then try 50-lb potato bags and then eventually try to get to where
you can lift a 100-lb potato bag in each hand and hold your arms straight for
more than a full minute. (I'm at this level.)

After you feel confident at that level, put a potato in each bag.
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Post by kidneyboy Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:46 pm

john bickar wrote:Here's a good exercise:

Begin by standing on a comfortable surface, where you have plenty of
room at each side.

With a 5-lb potato bag in each hand, extend your arms straight out
from your sides and hold them there as long as you can. Try to reach
a full minute, and then relax.

Each day you'll find that you can hold this position for just a bit
longer. After a couple of weeks, move up to 10-lb potato bags.

Then try 50-lb potato bags and then eventually try to get to where
you can lift a 100-lb potato bag in each hand and hold your arms straight for
more than a full minute. (I'm at this level.)

After you feel confident at that level, put a potato in each bag.


I hope you don't mind John but I stole this and passed it on to a couple of shooting buddies.
Thanks for the chuckle

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Post by john bickar Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:24 am

I stole it from someone who I'm sure stole it, so I don't have much, if any, moral high ground.
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Post by Jack H Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:14 pm

Real shooters use two potatoes.

But seriously, most I believe try to hold too steady too long, and then mess the trigger because their mind is on steady.  And they are not physically comfy doing it, another mind distraction.
Seems the part answer is to improve steadiness.  PT to condition the upper back and chest is seldom mentioned.  So get off your being old, decrepit, and lazy.  (I should listen to myself)
Condition, warm up, and stretch there.  I think you will find it helps.  I am not a trainer, PT or anything like that.  But I know someone who is.
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