Why is 22 more accurate than 45

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Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by 1911a1 on Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:42 am

It seems that the best guns can shoot 1/2 inch good at 50 yards with 22, but other handgun calibers can shoot maybe 1.5 inches. Is this because it's rimfire rather than a centerfire primer? Why isn't there a larger caliber that's accurate?

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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by LenV on Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:08 am

The .22 has a fixed barrel. A Thompson Center is as accurate as a .22 but don't come in semi automatic.
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by SmokinNJokin on Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:08 am

I'll give it a stab...

1) inherent accuracy of the caliber. consistency of manufacture in the machinery that produces 22 ammo, the higher velocity (900-1100 for match 22 vs 600-800 for match .45), advanced lubricants that work well on small .22 bullets but not as well on more complex shaped .45 lead bullets.

2) most match 22's have a barrel, frame and sights that are fixed together. The slide reciprocates by itself due to the straight blowback design. Therefore, whatever groups a .22 barrel can shoot in a test fixture, it can pretty much do the same in a gun.
This design is very hard to do with a centerfire gun. Prototypes have been made (Masaki Dragon gun, NC Gas gun, etc) but it is complicated and hasn't really caught on. For most guns (like 1911) Tight lockup between frame, slide, barrel and sights is achieved through serious craftsmanship, and every firing cycle loosens it slightly.

3) This is getting into the realms of the theoretical, but it may also have to do with twist rate suitability. 1:16 for .45 may not be optimal at the 700-800fps range. Jerry saw really good results with 1:12 or 1:14 IIRC. Using barrel twist specific to bullet profile and speed for 9mm, which has 4 available options (1:10, 1:16, 1:18, 1:32) has yielded sub 1" groups for plenty of builders in different platforms. It would stand to reason that if we had access to more twist options for .45, the same would be true.

4) recoil

5) noise

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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by PhotoEscape on Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:15 am

For the sake of accuracy, there are number of centerfire semi-auto handguns with fixed barrels:
H&K P7 series, Walther's PPK (probably the most famous one) & P5 (barrel isn't exactly fixed, but moves very little, and only horizontally), Desert Eagle, and of course famously infamous Remington's R51, just to name few, although I must say, that I don't know a single one that runs 45 ACP.  P7M10 in 40 S&W is probably closest.
AP
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by LenV on Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:42 am

They made some Walther P-38s in 45acp.
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by mpolans on Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:12 am

The only commonly available fixed barrel semi-auto in .45acp I can think of is a Hi-Point.  I think most will agree it's not the hot setup for bullseye.

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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by Tim:H11 on Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:46 am

I've seen 45's that have shot just as good a 22's in testing conditions though few and far between. I think the reality of the question is more "why do I shoot my 22 better than the 45?". I think many new shooters will assume that the 45 just in nature isn't as accurate as a 22 - in reality the 45 is just that challenging. The 22 (in my opinion guys) is easier to shoot than the 45 because it's it less grip sensitive and we're allowed to use a lighter trigger on them - which again in my opinion - I feel adds to the ease of shoot-ability of a rim fire gun. 

So to sum this up - 22's are easy, and 45's are more challenging and I think sometimes this causes shooter to think their 45 just isn't as accurate. Which can totally open up a whole mental game can of worms too. 

It's my guess that many shooters (not upper class shooters) use a load recipe that they got from another shooter that's had success with it. They don't test it. They load and shoot it. That load may not even be the one that your gun shoots the best. 

I'll leave it here.... I think I've gone a little off track but I still think a 45 can be made to shoot as accurately.
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by PhotoEscape on Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:16 pm

Ufffff...... we are starting from one issue related to the subject and then deviate to something else.  So, let me state the following.  I can assemble ammo for any centerfire caliber that will generate ~ 3.5 fps Standard Deviation, and shoot more accurately than rimfire........... provided we remove human factor from equation, and load is optimized for particular firearm.  So answering initial post - issue isn't with qualities embedded in particular caliber or type of ammunition, but rather why, we shooters shoot one caliber better than another.
AP
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by Chris Miceli on Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:22 pm

Tim:H11 wrote:I've seen 45's that have shot just as good a 22's in testing conditions though few and far between. I think the reality of the question is more "why do I shoot my 22 better than the 45?". I think many new shooters will assume that the 45 just in nature isn't as accurate as a 22 - in reality the 45 is just that challenging. The 22 (in my opinion guys) is easier to shoot than the 45 because it's it less grip sensitive and we're allowed to use a lighter trigger on them - which again in my opinion - I feel adds to the ease of shoot-ability of a rim fire gun. 

So to sum this up - 22's are easy, and 45's are more challenging and I think sometimes this causes shooter to think their 45 just isn't as accurate. Which can totally open up a whole mental game can of worms too. 

It's my guess that many shooters (not upper class shooters) use a load recipe that they got from another shooter that's had success with it. They don't test it. They load and shoot it. That load may not even be the one that your gun shoots the best. 

I'll leave it here.... I think I've gone a little off track but I still think a 45 can be made to shoot as accurately.
id like to see a 45 that does .5in 10 shot groups at 50 yards
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by dronning on Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:51 am

Chris Miceli wrote:id like to see a 45 that does .5in 10 shot groups at 50 yards

I don't think that could happen even shooting out of a barrel fixture.
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by Chris Miceli on Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:01 am

dronning wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:id like to see a 45 that does .5in 10 shot groups at 50 yards

I don't think that could happen even shooting out of a barrel fixture.
I 100% agree
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by 1joel1 on Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:29 am

.22s have a small niche to 50 yards and perhaps to 100yds. At 100 yards, a centerfire rifle and perhaps some pistols are more accurate. Just like out to 10 meters, air pistols and rifles are most accurate. Undoubtedly, out to 50 yards a .22 free pistol or rifle are most accurate. As stated above, everything is optimized for them to be so.

Cheers,

Joel

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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by Tim:H11 on Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:23 am

For our uses in this sport let’s ignore a 1/2” 22 group - let’s just say you have a 22 and a 45 and regardless of group size they both shoot within the X ring. It’s comes down to the shooter beyond that. And honestly I could care less if my 22 shot below an 1”. Because I’m not gonna hold that tight anyway at 50 yards. All that maters to me is “is it an X gun?”.
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by 1joel1 on Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:31 am

Tim:H11 wrote:And honestly I could care less if my 22 shot below an 1”. 

I'm curious, how much more could you care less?  lol!

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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by Chris Miceli on Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:57 am

Tim:H11 wrote:For our uses in this sport let’s ignore a 1/2” 22 group - let’s just say you have a 22 and a 45 and regardless of group size they both shoot within the X ring. It’s comes down to the shooter beyond that. And honestly I could care less if my 22 shot below an 1”. Because I’m not gonna hold that tight anyway at 50 yards. All that maters to me is “is it an X gun?”.
Spoken like someone who doesn’t have a 1/2 22lr. I know you jelly
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by Tim:H11 on Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:48 pm

1joel1 wrote:
Tim:H11 wrote:And honestly I could care less if my 22 shot below an 1”. 

I'm curious, how much more could you care less?  lol!

Joel

I’ll put it this way, as a civilian I don’t want to spend the money on it right now. And I shoot mid 880’s with what I have and my personal best is 891 with the 22. So I’m not going to focus on improving equipment/ammunition. I’m going to keep focusing on shooting.
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by LenV on Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:01 pm

Back to the OP. I still say it is the pistol not the bullet. The OP was asking about RimFire vs CF. If you want to test it and have money to burn just pick up a Kimber .22 conversion. Now go shoot good/great groups with it. Very Happy
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by Jack H on Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:46 pm

LenV wrote:Back to the OP. I still say it is the pistol not the bullet. The OP was asking about RimFire vs CF. If you want to test it and have money to burn just pick up a Kimber .22 conversion. Now go shoot good/great groups with it. Very Happy

Sometimes it is the bullet.  I'll repeat a long ago report of Ransom tests with an AA conversion.  All the ammo brands I tested grouped as expected.  Except one.
Eley was the best consistently grouping 1" +/-
Middle of the road ammo shot middle of the road groups.  1.5" or so.
One ammo, Green Tag, grouped 4" even 6"
Rechecking Eley to see if something had gone wrong.  It had not.
Again with Green Tag still at 4-6"

Bad lot maybe? 

???
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by Chris Miceli on Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:05 pm

Tim:H11 wrote:
1joel1 wrote:
Tim:H11 wrote:And honestly I could care less if my 22 shot below an 1”. 

I'm curious, how much more could you care less?  lol!

Joel

I’ll put it this way, as a civilian I don’t want to spend the money on it right now. And I shoot mid 880’s with what I have and my personal best is 891 with the 22. So I’m not going to focus on improving equipment/ammunition. I’m going to keep focusing on shooting.
no focus is required its just a stroke of a pen.
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by SmokinNJokin on Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:38 pm

Alex Hamilton will re-crown conversions for $45.

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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by robert84010 on Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:42 pm

SmokinNJokin wrote:Alex Hamilton will re-crown conversions for $45.
KC does also.

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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by PhotoEscape on Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:30 pm

I think, it is reasonable to discuss accuracy of the ammo, versus insisting on same size of the imprint on the target.  We need to remember that diameter of 22LR projectile is .222".  Subsequently 0.5" hole on the target represents more than 2x deviation of the diameter (it is actually more than 2 1/4 times).  I suggest applying same ratio to other calibers in order to compare accuracy.  If that is acceptable, then we are talking about 45 ACP group being just about 1.1".

Chris (and others),
Are there known guns that can put 10 rounds of 45ACP in 1.1" hole at the same distance as 22LR in 0.5"?

If there are, then answer to OP is obvious, - it is our perception that 22LR is more accurate than 45ACP, and it is solely based on the size of imprint on the target.  This is of course, IMHO, and I stand to be corrected.
AP
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by fc60 on Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:43 pm

Greetings,

With my barrel tester, I get close to the 1" group at 50 yards.

The below images are fired with a Bar-Sto 45 ACP barrel.

Note one is WadCutter the other is full charge Hard Ball...

These groups are typical of good ammunition. Please note, not all lots shoot the same. You do need to test your ammo!!!




Cheers,

Dave
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by Chris Miceli on Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:47 pm

PhotoEscape wrote:I think, it is reasonable to discuss accuracy of the ammo, versus insisting on same size of the imprint on the target.  We need to remember that diameter of 22LR projectile is .222".  Subsequently 0.5" hole on the target represents more than 2x deviation of the diameter (it is actually more than 2 1/4 times).  I suggest applying same ratio to other calibers in order to compare accuracy.  If that is acceptable, then we are talking about 45 ACP group being just about 1.1".

Chris (and others),
Are there known guns that can put 10 rounds of 45ACP in 1.1" hole at the same distance as 22LR in 0.5"?

If there are, then answer to OP is obvious, - it is our perception that 22LR is more accurate than 45ACP, and it is solely based on the size of imprint on the target.  This is of course, IMHO, and I stand to be corrected.
AP
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

Post by PhotoEscape on Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:55 pm

Thank you, Dave and Chris;
I guess, my question boils down to if you are in the agreement, that using suggested approach indeed is reasonable approach for evaluating accuracy of the ammo.  I believe, this way we can compare apple to apple, as saying goes.

AP
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Re: Why is 22 more accurate than 45

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