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Rapid fire w/ 45

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SteveT
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Ed Hall
Dr.Don
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Dipnet
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Rapid fire w/ 45 Empty Rapid fire w/ 45

Post by Dipnet 10/7/2018, 11:50 pm

I have been vexed by the 45 the rapid fire stage; it's where I tend to make more mistakes. Maybe some of it is due to age and reduced sharp focus, but I think is mostly unrecognized and uncorrected bad habits. I keep returning to basics to correct these mistakes and usually resort to reviewing many iterations of the shot plan for rapid fire for corrections. It donned on me that what I need to do is improve is the first shot in a string. My logic is that if I can fire the first shot accurately and relatively quickly and, I am more likely to fall into an even cadence for the remaining shots of the string.

My diagnosis is that I've been inconsistently hesitate getting off the first shot, which results is trying to catch up with last 2 or 3 shots, which tend to miss the black. According to the "Bullseye Mind" book, my hesitation results from a lack of confidence and this is what I need to correct. Having a buddy give the line commands beginning "Ready on the right..." enables repeatedly practicing getting off quick, aimed first shots. We trade-off doing this for each other. The last secession resulted in consistent 96-3xs, an improvement in the right direction. The goal is to develop a new habit for 45 rapid fire. Note: this is not an issue with 22s, which I attribute to my inherent preference for a hinged trigger and infinitely adjustable trigger of my Pardini verses the straight rear-pull trigger of the 1911 45.

I also believe that grip is of paramount importance in executing a well-shot rapid fire string, specifically making sure my trigger finger is isolated from the grip and that I am pulling trigger straight back. I can't yet say this method is the cat's meow, but initial results are encouraging. I feel I have taken a step past just throwing rounds down range, i.e., the difference between practice versus goal-oriented training. The next steps I plan are adding additional follow-up shots in a even cadence. My best rapid fire scores have always resulted from a near-equal timing of discharges of subsequent shots.

Any comments? Thanks, dipnet
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Post by mspingeld 10/8/2018, 7:03 am

I'm having the same issue. Slow and timed are coming along but rapid is still a challenge. I think, for me, the answer is trigger discipline. Keep it moving but not too fast and worry less about a perfect sight picture.

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Post by Dr.Don 10/8/2018, 8:59 am

The Bullseye app on the iphone has a drill section.  Set it for 2 seconds.  It will give the full set of commands, then a buzzer followed by another buzzer 2 seconds later.  Practice getting the first shot off in that 2 seconds.  If that doesn't work, set it for 3 seconds and work down to 2.
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Post by Ed Hall 10/8/2018, 11:32 am

Cadence is two-edged.  It can be the driver for consistent application of the trigger, or it can simply be the result of a consistent application of the trigger operation.  Starting the trigger prior to reaching the settle in which you wish to fire is key.  Some describe this as keeping the trigger moving, as stated previous.  Confidence is important, as well as learning what to do.  Visualization is a big help in much of this, as is letting go of concern over the outcome.  Be sure to let your subconscious know what you want.  Don't just shoot and hope for or question the result.

As for training, I always suggest what I call a Progressive Drill, as described in this previous thread:

What do you practice at the range?

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Post by zanemoseley 10/8/2018, 11:53 am

When  I'm "in the zone" with rapid fire I feel like I'm driving the gun, it feels like a continuous process not separate shots. If I'm flinching at all my brain seems to know where to pull the trigger to get the POI in the center of the bull. Keep the trigger moving. I also seem to shoot better if I keep my eye focused on the center of the bull throughout the shot process, drive the dot back to the center, don't let your eye wander back up to find the dot then reacquire the bull. Also really stay into the gun, your stance must be strong.

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Post by bdas 10/8/2018, 4:45 pm

I have had this same issue (poor 45 rapid fire).  The primary thing that helped me get better was developing and following a shot process for rapid fire.  I developed my rapid fire shot process (which involves figuring out what you're doing wrong and what you need to do to perform better) by doing some of the drills suggested above, including the first-shot-in-2-seconds drill, and 2-shot drills and 3-shot drills similar to what Ed Hall referenced. 

Some of the key things that really helped me when I worked them into my rapid fire shot process were...
1) Being calm/relaxed before the first shot.  Part of this is to enable me to focus on shooting / ignore distractions.  Part of this just proper stance (relaxed, not tensed up).  Part of this is confidence (I would get nervous for 45 rapid fire because I knew it was my worst event).

2) Getting a good first shot off.  This was, for me, not just a time issue.  Certainly getting that first shot off quickly provides extra time for the other shots, so that helps.  But I found that being happy with my first shot really helped me make good follow-up shots (probably confidence again).  It's just silly for that first shot in rapid fire to be terrible, because it's exactly like the first shot in timed fire, and my 45 timed fire was good.  Practicing that first shot definitely helped my whole rapid fire string.

3) Improved trigger process.  I've not yet achieved the "keep the trigger moving" thing with success (whenever I try that, I string shots vertically).  But by taking up the slack in the trigger during recoil recovery, and then putting partial pressure on the trigger while getting the dot to settle is extremely helpful for me.  That way, as soon as my wobble becomes acceptable, my trigger finger is ready to go (with minimal other movement).  This saves a surprising amount of time between shots, but it requires practice.

4) Actively driving / muscling / pushing the gun back down to the target after recoil.  With the 22, it moves so little that you can casually, passively let it settle back down, and still have plenty of time.  Doing that with the 45 wastes significant time.  Drive it back on target.  Having that extra tenth of a second to aim makes it feel a lot more like timed fire.  Be careful not to let it interfere with your follow-through, though; you want to recover from recoil, not anticipate it.

5) Realizing that 4 good shots in rapid fire produced scores that were as good as (or better than) than 5 wild shots (4 nines beats 5 sevens).  This was a huge help to me, because once I stopped feeling pressure to make sure I got that fifth shot in, especially during practice, I started practicing taking good shots, instead of practicing taking bad (frenzied) shots.  I suddenly had time to apply my shot process to each shot, instead of abandoning it after the first two or three shots in a time panic.

Working on incorporating all of those things into my rapid fire shot process, and then practicing that process, was what got me over the hump. Practicing taking good shots increases your confidence, and, combined with the other points above to save time, eventually allowed me to get 5 good shots off in the 10 seconds, and my rapid fire scores went from low 70's (or worse) to low 90's in a couple months.  What specifically helps you might be different than what helped me, which is why your shot process will be different than mine, but you need to develop and refine your rapid fire shot process and practice it.

Dave

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Post by SteveT 10/8/2018, 6:39 pm

Hmmm. I thought I posted this earlier today, but it's not here.

+1 for Ed Hall's Progressive Drill.

+1 for first shot drills.

I have some mp3 commands edited for different lengths of time, good for first shot and progressive drills. See drills.zip here.

I find that shooting on turning targets is much easier than audible commands. With turning targets I pull the trigger as soon as the sight picture is right. I don't like holding on target and not pulling the trigger because I'm waiting for the beep. I find it works better if I arrive on target just as, or a little after, the buzzer. With the recorded commands above I lift after "ready on the left", raise above the bull, align sights or center the dot in the tube and then start to settle onto the bull about a second after "ready on the firing line". That gets me to the center at the same time as the buzzer. If the sight picture is right, pull the trigger. If I hover over the bull too long I try to make the shot perfect and go into slow fire mode and waste precious seconds dressing up the shot.
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Post by Jon Eulette 10/8/2018, 7:10 pm

RF with 45 is no different than RF with 22.
Only difference is you are moved further from the bull than with the 22 because of recoil. All fundamentals are the same. The mental hurdle can sometimes be what keeps you from shooting good RF with the 45. Nothing magical about the 45 except you have to be more committed to squeezing the trigger continuously.
Jon
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Post by CR10X 10/9/2018, 7:03 pm

Remember the line "Eeegh! Eye, always look eye!  Come back tomorrow."?

For sustained fire, "Trigger and Grip, always think Trigger and Grip! Shoot next shot."

CR

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Post by john bickar 10/9/2018, 11:05 pm

I was taught, "As soon as the target quivers, MASH IT."

There's a lot of wisdom, but also a good deal of finesse, in those 8 words.

Determine your correct aiming point on the edge of the target (hint: the center of the black when the target is faced may not be in line horizontally with where the target is when it's edged).

Stage the trigger (you need to break some eggs to make this omelette).

As soon as the target quivers, MASH IT (meaning bring the trigger positively and unquestionably straight back. Break that first shot in 0.5s; 9.5s is a good deal of time for 4 well-aimed shots).
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Post by PMcfall 10/10/2018, 2:57 pm

For subsequent shots, proper grip and stance will become very important.  The dot needs to return to the black pretty much on its own so you can complete the trigger pull for that shot.  You don't have time to go looking for the dot.  Trust your hold and don't try to perfect the shot, just let it go.
Phil
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