OAL with Zero 185 LSWCHP

What are you guys using?

Not sure why you would want my advice, but with SWC I do not use a OAL.  Instead, I seat the bullet so that the shoulder is 0.02 - 0.03" above case mouth.

Same here...

Ditto..

;)

Frankly I received much of my load advice from gents who spent much of their time on rifle and pistol teams in the military. All I can say is that so far all of it seems to be working. I have adjusted powder charges some but not much. It has been a good place to start from but I am sure even they would say they are not the last word.
Biggest lesson from them regards where to look when things go wrong - in my case the mirror.

DeweyHales wrote:What are you guys using?

Hi Dewey,
Just measured some I loaded this summer and the dimension of mine is .930-.932. The variation is from the RL-1050 shellplate.
Of note, I shot next to Roddy Toyota at the Oregon Regional and he convinced me to try crimping down to "around" the low .460"'s and do some testing.
I was able to reduce my powder charge at .465" and had the same accuracy. What I really noticed was that the feeding cycle was much smoother than the rounds crimped to .469".
Hope this helps,

Wes Lorenz wrote:

DeweyHales wrote:What are you guys using?

Hi Dewey,
Just measured some I loaded this summer and the dimension of mine is .930-.932. The variation is from the RL-1050 shellplate.
Of note, I shot next to Roddy Toyota at the Oregon Regional and he convinced me to try crimping down to "around" the low .860"'s and do some testing.
I was able to reduce my powder charge at .865" and had the same accuracy. What I really noticed was that the feeding cycle was much smoother than the rounds crimped to .869".
Hope this helps,

You meant .465 for the crimp, right?

cdrt wrote:

Wes Lorenz wrote:

DeweyHales wrote:What are you guys using?

You meant .465 for the crimp, right?

Corrected and Thanks!

I’ve been specifically looking for an OAL for a few reasons.

We all seem to load our 45 cases over and over and over. Cases change size. Trying to stay at a measurement above the case mouth, would be frustrating.

Second, in testing some ammo, I’ve been getting a number of shots that are very high. Either gun is really locking up differently, or it is slightly out of battery.

1.24" for the Magnus 185 SWCHP.  I believe it's very close to the Zero, but I could be wrong.

I also don't measure OAL, about .020-.030" shoulder exposed sounds about right. I also recommend a tight crimp. I recently went from a .469" crimp to a .463" crimp to get my ignition more consistent.

99.9% of the time I set the dies by looking at the bullet. Since I was loading these this evening and the question was asked I pulled out the calipers. This is what they measure. I also take my reloading advice from Roddy and do a tight crimp (.463-.465). I have thick fingernails and use a nail thickness above the case to adjust the seating die. I never change the dies for different case lengths since there is no need. I do swap out the entire die for different bullet types.

OK, there are two ways to seat a SWC:
1) use the almost worthless SWC seating stem that came with your die set
or
2) get a seating stem that ONLY contacts the shoulder of the bullet.
Besides helping to align the bullet during seating, the custom seating stem NEVER again needs to be adjusted for ANY other SWC bullet.
Now: for general COL questions—there is significant variation within ANY and EVERY brand of gun/barrel in terms of the distance to the lede/rifling of the barrel, so the COL has a range of lengths that will feed just fine. There is NO single COL that is BEST for all barrels even for a specific bullet. For Zero 185gn L-SWCHP bullets, I load 1.250", meplat to case head (i.e., COL). That was established by loading a few inert dummy rounds so the shoulder was just off the lede and the case head was just flush with the barrel hood, and verifying that they fed and chambered just fine and adjusting my custom seating stem to just touch the shoulder on those dummy rounds. As can be seen, other barrels vary and I might need to vary the COL for those barrels--I haven't had to, but it is certainly possible.
My shoulder to case head measurement for ALL .45 SWCs in that gun is 0.928" plus std. variation in dimensions that I have no control over.
Using the barrel to  minimize head space gap seems to work better than a nail thickness.
Per Ramshot:
“SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH (COL)
It is important to note that the SAAMI COL values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must
be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as
1) magazine length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of
the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.
• Always begin loading at the minimum "Start Load".
• Increase in 2% increments towards the Maximum Load.
• Watch for signs of excessive pressure.
• Never exceed the Maximum Load.”

Your COL (OAL) is determined by your barrel and your gun and your magazine and the specific bullet you are using.
What worked in a pressure barrel or in my gun has very little to do with what will work in your gun. Load a couple of dummy rounds (no powder and no primer) to the max. COL (OAL) and see if it fits your magazine, feeds in your gun, and chambers in your barrel.
Seat the bullet slightly deeper until you achieve all three of these goals. This is the COL (OAL) for you in your gun with that make of bullet. You are the one in control. Enjoy it. You can make ammunition tailored to your gun.

A couple of things jumped out at me on the above post. #4. We never begin loading at the minimum start load. We start way below that and decrease if possible. We are not trying to get anywhere near max load. Another consideration is that were not loading for rifle competition. Make your bullets so they feed reliably in everyones 1911. No special dies are needed to keep all the rounds in the 10 ring. This of course was my opinion.

Len

45 acp-.947"  head to shoulder for my Gold Cup .  Measuring on the bullet nose will give a different shoulder position.

Casting with different alloys changes bullet length.  This is why measuring to the shoulder is better for me.

At this length, the bullets shoulder is contacting the barrels rifling. Better accuracy for slow fire. Not recomended for time/rapid.

Thanks, Guys. I’ve got my answer.

DeweyHales wrote:Second, in testing some ammo, I’ve been getting a number of shots that are very high. Either gun is really locking up differently, or it is slightly out of battery.

It would be informative if the answer you got solved this issue. 

What I learned from this thread is maybe my crimp it not tight enough.  I try not to crimp too much so as not to deform the lead bullet, but maybe I should ignore that.

At 1.230”, I would get wild shots. These targets were fired with a Pardini GT45 with 3.6 gr BE in Fed cases lit by WLPs at 1.217”.

These functioned perfectly with shots exactly on call.

What crimp did you use with your OAL of 1.217"?

0.468”. I have lots of soot on the case.

I will try more crimp and a tenth or two less powder before long.

joy2shoot wrote:

DeweyHales wrote:Second, in testing some ammo, I’ve been getting a number of shots that are very high. Either gun is really locking up differently, or it is slightly out of battery.

It would be informative if the answer you got solved this issue. 

What I learned from this thread is maybe my crimp it not tight enough.  I try not to crimp too much so as not to deform the lead bullet, but maybe I should ignore that.

I agree that I think you should ignore worrying about deforming the bullet. I had to pull one apart today (primer went into hiding) and thought it was a perfect photo op. You can see where I set the bullet easy enough. I will let the picture speak for itself about comparing crimp to lube ring etc etc.

LenV wrote:
I agree that I think you should ignore worrying about deforming the bullet.

Hi Len,
Your statement is exactly what Roddy told me at the match. "Once the round is ignited that soft, squishy, swaged bullet will deform into the rifling and make the crimp deformation irrelevant." I had to be 60yrs old to learn this............
Wes

Wes Lorenz wrote: I had to be 60yrs old to learn this............

young 'un...

I changed the scope on the RO today so I could shoot lighter loads with the 185's. This was at 25 yds off a sand bag. I guess I could go a click left. I took a 7000SC off and put on a Sightron S-30.