choosing new red dot with magnification

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Post by doc18015 on 12/1/2018, 7:49 am

I would like to get the recommended red dot from the users on this forum along with the use of a magnifier for use in pistol bulls-eye competition. I am using a Pardini 22 Lr . Weight and ease of use very important along with the dot configuration. Any suggestions other than Ultra-dot which I have ?

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Post by SteveT on 12/1/2018, 8:36 am

The recommendation is don't use magnification for bullseye. One handed, un-supported shooting means the sight picture is always moving. Magnification makes the movement appear even larger. It's hard enough to smoothly pull the trigger to the rear, No point in making it harder. As far as I know there aren't any good quality, light weight, red-dot scopes with magnification. 

For No magnification, most red dots are easy to use. Panoramic sights are the lightest, but most aren't suitable for bullseye because they either lack click adjustment or have very large adjustment increments. The Aimpoint Micro is the best small, light red dot out there, but expensive. For about 1/2-1/3 the cost the Holosun and Primary Arms are pretty well regarded and I would also consider similar Nikon and Sig red dots if I was looking.
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Post by LenV on 12/1/2018, 9:48 am

Without weighing in on the pros and cons of using magnification. The very best red dot with magnification was the Aimpoint 5000. As luck would have it there is one on eBay right now. They have not made the 5000 for awhile now but still the best. That of course was my opinion. They are a tad heavy with 2X capability.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Aimpoint-5000-Made-in-Sweden-2-POWER-MAGNIFICATION/332906470077?hash=item4d82c59abd:g:wXEAAOSwiwZb~NnQ:rk:19🇵🇫0

choosing new red dot with magnification S-l1600
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Post by shaky452 on 12/1/2018, 5:16 pm

I replaced the Sightron S30 (mounted using low Pardini 30mm rings) on my Pardini with a Burris FF3 and really like this combination. It provides a slight image magnification, which I like, and dropped the weight approximately 5 ounces. I also have a Vortex Venom and it too provides a slight bit of magnification and appears to be about the same size as the Burris FF3.


choosing new red dot with magnification Pardin10

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Post by doc18015 on 12/2/2018, 7:19 am

I have been researching red dots and all leads to further lack of direction. It does seem that by using magnification the amplification of the movement becomes almost intolerable;but yet the ability to pinpoint the target is greatly aided. The +/- of these two seem to negate each other and leave the error in the hands of the shooters' arm(literally). A method should be found to minimize the dot movement in favor of a better sight picture.

Weight does add to the movement but lack of it dos not seem to minimize it enough to sacrifice going in the direction of open sights; the dot has proven to be better.

Try calling the tech department of a manufacturer such as Trijicon and pose the question. They have either not gone there or have, and say it is not possible optically. Seems that invention would offer huge return on investment and market share.

I do thank you for the lead on E-bay. The unit weighs in at 11 oz and is 8 inches long. I think that the weight is somewhat high but tolerable for handgun use. Current bids are at $200+ ..... Probably worth it .

I am interested in the thoughts of this forum. Is the concept worth pursuing?

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Post by Wobbley on 12/2/2018, 9:00 am

In my opinion magnification beyond 2X is too distracting.
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Post by dronning on 12/2/2018, 1:05 pm

Wobbley wrote:In my opinion magnification beyond 2X is too distracting.
+1 on that, even when resting on sandbags! 

Most people can't accept their hold let alone a 2x dot fluttering around like a bumble bee on crack!
- Dave
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Post by Jack H on 12/2/2018, 1:43 pm

doc18015 wrote:I have been researching red dots and all leads to further lack of direction. It does seem that by using magnification the amplification of the movement becomes almost intolerable;but yet the ability to pinpoint the target is greatly aided. The +/- of these two seem to negate each other and leave the error in the hands of the shooters' arm(literally). A method should be found to minimize the dot movement in favor of a better sight picture.

Weight does add to the movement but lack of it dos not seem to minimize it enough to sacrifice going in the direction of open sights; the dot has proven to be better.

Try calling the tech department of a manufacturer such as Trijicon and pose the question. They have either not gone there or have, and say it is not possible optically. Seems that invention would offer huge return on investment and market share.

I do thank you for the lead on E-bay. The unit weighs in at 11 oz and is 8 inches long. I think that the weight is somewhat high but tolerable for handgun use. Current bids are at $200+ ..... Probably worth it .

I am interested in the thoughts of this forum. Is the concept worth pursuing?

I have marked in the above what I believe is the flaw in your plan. 
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Post by Jon Eulette on 12/2/2018, 2:04 pm

R
I think negative magnification (UD) isn’t your friend and 2x won’t be your friend either. I see you are classified as a marksman, which tells me you have some fundamentals that need developed. Putting a 2x scope on your Pardini is just going to make things worse. I’ve only known one successful 2x scope shooter and he was a Two-Time Perry Champion and Olympian; Darius ‘Doc’ Young. If you cannot accept your hold and squeeze the trigger confidently then you will be hurling lead everywhere accept the 10 ring. It will definitely compound things.
So in my objective opinion, I recommend not going to a higher magnification.
Jon
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Post by james r chapman on 12/2/2018, 6:07 pm

almost all handgun scopes are designed for some type of rest, 2 hand grip, or "taco" hold.
Your going down the wrong highway chasing a scope.
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Post by Bigtrout on 12/3/2018, 7:25 am

All good advice.  One more thing: if you do mount a 2X scope go for crosshairs, red dots tend to have more complications, need batteries and dot images can be problematic.  For bullseye competition 2X magnification will drive you crazy.
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Post by doc18015 on 12/3/2018, 7:34 am

I am thinking about just that!  I have access to a 2X scope that I could mount to the Pardini and give it a try. I have a Walther GSP with a variable on it, but the entire gun is too heavy for Bullseye (great shooter though).

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Post by Blsi2600 on 12/3/2018, 12:45 pm

2670 shooters using 2X scopes
Charles Baxter    Burris ???
Butch Powell       Burris/Hebard 8min dot
Doc Young          Leupold 2X Duplex crosshair

All this from memory.  May or may not be 100% accurate.

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Post by LenV on 12/4/2018, 12:06 am

That 5000 sold for 401.00. Actually a pretty fair price for one of the 5000 series. I have several 2X scopes that I use on my pistols but mostly for testing ammo or accuracy. I use a Leupold with a duplex reticle or the Tasco Pro with the 1 minute dot. Both those scopes work fine to test with. In the late 70s I used a Bushnell Phantom on my old 41 with great results. Of course it wasn't old then..and neither was I.


I went down this 2x rabbit hole a little while ago. Don't even think about this scope.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t9540-trying-a-new-scope?highlight=2x+scope
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Post by doc18015 on 12/4/2018, 7:30 am

Just ordered one on e-bay. Due in Dec. 8 ............$49 delivered no lose price!

Thank you very much!

I will post after trying in Very Happy Very Happy the field!

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Post by zanemoseley on 12/4/2018, 7:46 am

Lol did you just order the exact scope that Len said not to get...

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Post by doc18015 on 12/4/2018, 8:33 am

$49 dollars of my "TESTING" time is well worth it! The investment far outweighs the benefit and.....can be returned ; fully guaranteed!

Maybe a new invention will result!

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Post by zanemoseley on 12/4/2018, 8:57 am

Well that's an optimistic way of looking at it. A waste of ammo could be another lol.

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Post by doc18015 on 12/4/2018, 9:09 am

Zane,


Take a look at the 1700+ reviews of the product. All very good to excellent. Unfortunately, your attitude promulgates to the entire forum. If you need to comment, it should be constructive not destructive. Who knows, you may actually learn from this "experiment". LOL
Make it a great day!

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Post by zanemoseley on 12/4/2018, 9:24 am

Well its got a 3.6 star rating on Amazon and 3.7 on Cabelas. Len recommended against it and I trust Len. Your time and money. Let us know if it works out.

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Post by kc.crawford.7 on 12/5/2018, 7:33 am

Another one or actually two would be Aimpoint 9000 and 7000 with a 2X multiplier on the front lens.  Not common, but you can find them here and there.  I have at least one of each.
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Post by doc18015 on 12/5/2018, 8:26 am

Found the 9000 on E-bay; quite pricey (new, not pre-owned ). That may be step 2 after testing the Truglo and adding the proper 
len(s).......cannot wait until I receive and begin testing

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Post by dronning on 12/5/2018, 8:30 am

doc18015 wrote: need to comment, it should be constructive not destructive. Who knows, you may actually learn from this "experiment". LOL
You asked for advice and got about 100% of the responses have cautioned against magnification including several like myself that have tried it.  If it worked or was worth the effort you would see a ton of them on the line, but you don't.

You know what they say about conducting the same experiment and expecting different results

You simply don't need to see the target that clearly.  The best example of that was Im Dong-Hyun a BLIND South Korean archer that set Olympic records during the 2012 Olympics in London.  All he can see is a blob of colored rings.  That blob still has a center and that's all you need.


- Dave
I do still use 1-4X24 Burris MTAC (Ballistic AR reticle) when Ransom Rest testing.
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Post by LenV on 12/7/2018, 7:58 pm

I used one like this for a lot of years on my 41. Then they invented red dots. I remember cleaning the SF match at sectionals with it. Hmm. I think that was in 1978. I wouldn't put it on anything bigger then a .22. 1.5X  NFI

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TC-Thompson-Contender-1-5x-1-x-LoBo-Pistol-Scope-Rail-Mount/362503479723?hash=item5466e421ab:g:ZBQAAOSw-BlcCeX1:rk:1🇵🇫0
choosing new red dot with magnification S-l1600
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