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Progress today

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bruce martindale
TomH_pa
thessler
mikemyers
Ed Hall
SMBeyer
Allgoodhits
DA/SA
dieselguy624
chopper
tray999
davidbullseye
Arthur
Clamps
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james r chapman
Jon Eulette
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285wannab
Wobbley
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Post by Wobbley 12/12/2018, 4:46 pm

A snapshot of a slow target shot at 50 feet.  20 shots. Shot indoors.  

Not a clean but definitely progress.  I saw the two wide ones and most of the tens.  It’s nice when the dot just stops in the center for a brief moment while you press the trigger. 


Progress today 9ad25010
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Post by 285wannab 12/12/2018, 6:18 pm

86, I wouldn't mind that slow fire.

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Post by daflorc 12/12/2018, 7:59 pm

174 points! Man I would take that slow fire target every time if they allowed it Smile

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Post by Jon Eulette 12/12/2018, 8:07 pm

Were you just shooting or working on something?
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Post by Wobbley 12/12/2018, 10:20 pm

Just shooting.  I mostly do this for fun.  But next time I’m going to try not taking shots until the dot stops every shot.
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Post by Jon Eulette 12/12/2018, 11:04 pm

Ok. Try this next time. Shoot a 10 shot SF target as you described. Then shoot a 10 shot SF target with the goal of breaking the shot within 2 seconds of entering the bull. Accept whatever the hold is. Start trigger squeeze as lowering pistol into bull. Continuous squeeze uninterrupted. If you break a shot that takes say 4 seconds not a big deal. Analysis; are the shots that broke sooner better than the shots that broke later?
Where do you shoot indoors in San Diego?
Jon
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Post by Wobbley 12/13/2018, 12:13 am

I shoot at The Gun Range on Balboa.  It’s west of the 163.  The light is crappy as is normal for an indoor range.

I’ll try that.
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Post by 285wannab 12/13/2018, 11:15 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Ok. Try this next time. Shoot a 10 shot SF target as you described. Then shoot a 10 shot SF target with the goal of breaking the shot within 2 seconds of entering the bull. Accept whatever the hold is. Start trigger squeeze as lowering pistol into bull. Continuous squeeze uninterrupted. If you break a shot that takes say 4 seconds not a big deal. Analysis; are the shots that broke sooner better than the shots that broke later?
Where do you shoot indoors in San Diego?
Jon
I will try that too.  Thanks Jon.

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Post by james r chapman 12/13/2018, 11:27 am

I will try also
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Post by lablover 12/13/2018, 6:21 pm

I’ll try as well!  Funny I was going to ask that question about holding too long. There is a point my dot is dead still and I can’t seem to pull off the shot!
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Post by Clamps 12/14/2018, 3:27 pm

I've briefly tried this on a couple occasions in the past with negative feedback on my target. Imagine that?

Really put some effort in today and it payed big dividends. Timely reminder Jon, thank you!

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Post by Arthur 12/14/2018, 9:43 pm

Chicken finger, sometimes the trigger feels like 50 lb.  When I have enough confidence for a nice uninterrupted trigger pull it goes better.

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Post by davidbullseye 12/17/2018, 9:53 pm

Terrific exercise idea by Jon.  

My question is, from the time you start applying pressure to the trigger, how long does it take before the hammer drops in SF and sustained fire?

Thanks for the reply

David

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Post by tray999 12/17/2018, 10:13 pm

davidbullseye wrote:Terrific exercise idea by Jon.  

My question is, from the time you start applying pressure to the trigger, how long does it take before the hammer drops in SF and sustained fire?

Thanks for the reply

David

For me in slow fire, 7 to 8 seconds, I just keep adding pressure to break the shot, or I start my routine over again.   In timed fire, I apply pressure until it breaks, two to three seconds.
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Post by Jon Eulette 12/17/2018, 10:24 pm

Through dry practice we develop a sense of timing. I strive to shoot all my SF shots the same. I use same exact methodology for TF & RF. I time my lift so I am settled just before the targets turn and have half the trigger weight squeezed/pulled and continue the squeeze so that when the targets face I’m close to breaking my shot. So I’m 100% committed to the shot before the target faces; I just continue the squeeze and break the shot. Have I ever shot an early shot? He’ll yeah! You have to break out of your comfort zone to grow. Push the envelope, etc. What’s important is learning to continuously pull the trigger and not jerk it or force it. Holding to long most of the time ends with ugly shots. So I’m of the opinion an early committed shot almost always is better than waiting for the sun to go down to break a shot. Get the shot off. Believe in it. Learn all the fundamentals and it makes pulling the trigger that much easier.
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Post by chopper 12/18/2018, 12:58 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Ok. Try this next time. Shoot a 10 shot SF target as you described. Then shoot a 10 shot SF target with the goal of breaking the shot within 2 seconds of entering the bull. Accept whatever the hold is. Start trigger squeeze as lowering pistol into bull. Continuous squeeze uninterrupted. If you break a shot that takes say 4 seconds not a big deal. Analysis; are the shots that broke sooner better than the shots that broke later?
Where do you shoot indoors in San Diego?
Jon
  Jon, this is the approach I've been trying to master, and can say sometimes it works better with the HS Victor than the 1911. With the Victor I take up slack and I don't start pressing the trigger until the dot is at the top of the black this gets a break in the black, this probably takes a second but feels longer. With the 45 I have to start the pull a bit  sooner because of the feel in the 2 different triggers (lever vs bow), this gun seems like 2 seconds or more.
 My slow fire is basically the same thing over and over once I get my stance, grip, and natural POA line up. I spend more time on thinking that shot into the bull, taking 2 breaths then lifting gun while inhaling and exhale while staging to shoot. I don't take a lot of time holding, most of my actual time is spent prepping before actuation. In TF and RF most of time is spent on recovery. It all sounds so easy and it'd nice to be able to do it automatically, but that takes lots of dedication to dry fire and practice. Like one of our member says "trigger trigger trigger", boy is he ever right.
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Post by dieselguy624 1/31/2019, 10:26 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Ok. Try this next time. Shoot a 10 shot SF target as you described. Then shoot a 10 shot SF target with the goal of breaking the shot within 2 seconds of entering the bull. Accept whatever the hold is. Start trigger squeeze as lowering pistol into bull. Continuous squeeze uninterrupted. If you break a shot that takes say 4 seconds not a big deal. Analysis; are the shots that broke sooner better than the shots that broke later?
Where do you shoot indoors in San Diego?
Jon
This!!  I have focused on accepting the hold and executing the shot. Shot a 99 Slow last week & a 96 this week in our Winter indoor league. Last 3 weeks have been the best I've shot ever. Just get the dot in the black, settle as best you can and let it go.

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Post by DA/SA 1/31/2019, 10:55 am

I've proven Jon's technique true on numerous occasions, as my TF and RF groups are far smaller that my SF groups due to waiting too long for the perfect sight picture.
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Post by Allgoodhits 1/31/2019, 6:48 pm

Jon,

If I grasp what you are saying, it is let the gun shoot by pressing the trigger instead of making it shoot by pressing the trigger. In other words, trust that it will shoot when enough pressure/movement of the trigger takes place.

Martin
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Post by Jon Eulette 1/31/2019, 7:36 pm

Martin,
As a long time BE competitor, coach, and observer, I have made some observations. Most shooters expert and below hold too long and break shots later rather than sooner. The common result is a poor shot. Why? Fatigue from holding too long, psychological breakdown (damn this gun isn’t going off), forcing the shot to break, etc. Earlier breaking shot omits the fatigue issue. Starting squeeze before entering target bull and breaking it sooner prevents jerking trigger from holding too long ( in most cases). Another reason I prefer short roll trigger is because I can ‘feel’ it moving and ‘know’ I’m squeezing the trigger and ‘know’ it’s going to break ( prevents jerking trigger); chicken finger preventer. Long rolling triggers require much higher level of confidence to squeeze it and higher level of physical conditioning to hold pistol in position long enough to hold 10 ring without drooping low and breaking the shot. I call this two grouping; centered 10’s and low dropped shots. I cannot shoot a long roll. A medium roll is good for a newer shooter. But at some point graduation to shorter roll is necessary to break into higher classifications. Statistically if you hold longer you will not shoot a 10. Statistically if you hold to long you will not have good trigger squeeze. There are very few shooters who can hold long and shoot well. So from observations and personal experience I know that the odds are in my favor of shooting a 10 are greater if I break the shot sooner. So the shooter needs to develop their own timing on when is it best to break the shot for them. So keep track of how long shots are taking. Figure out the approximate time (2-3 seconds, etc) and try to stay in that framework. I find that I sometimes have an extremely early shot that could be an 9 or 8 at 12 o’clock. I will take that! It’s a good shot. It wasn’t jerked or drooped because I held too long. It had good trigger squeeze and my other fundamentals were good; just broke a little early. So the goal in my original post was to self test whether the earlier shots as opposed to holding longer were better. It also allows more consistently good breaking shots with no extra help from the trigger finger. Through good results it will improve your confidence and your trust of squeezing the trigger. It’s not for everyone, but what do you have to lose trying it for a while to see if you can break through a plateau.
Jon
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Post by SMBeyer 1/31/2019, 8:38 pm

I bet 80-90% of shots that break sooner will be better than those that break later.

If you are waiting for the dot to settle to squeeze the trigger you are WAY behind the 8 ball!
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Post by Ed Hall 2/2/2019, 11:02 am

I'd like to add a little something to Jon's previous post:

If you study your hold closely, you will notice that the tightness of the pattern varies in a predictable manner.  It will decrease and increase in size.  I consider the decreased regions as nulls.  (This used to be described in the USAMU manual.  It's probably still there and probably elsewhere, too.)  The important part is that the nulls increase in size as you continue to hold.  For most shooters, the best null is the first.  In one of Don Nygord's articles, he suggested that most BE shooters are not ready to fire when they reach their first null.

What Jon described will help you to fire during that first null, but you have to have faith and a good understanding of your hold pattern.

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Post by Wobbley 2/2/2019, 11:27 am

Thanks Ed.  I’ve noticed that too.  And like Nygord said I’m seldom ready to press the trigger when the first null occurs.  I’m trying to learn to see pattern that precedes the null.
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Post by Ed Hall 2/2/2019, 12:12 pm

Wobbley wrote:Thanks Ed.  I’ve noticed that too.  And like Nygord said I’m seldom ready to press the trigger when the first null occurs.  I’m trying to learn to see pattern that precedes the null.
Just 'cause I feel like it, let's expand even further here:

Let's take full study of our hold.  Let's start from the bench.  (For most of us) we raise above the target and then lower into the black (possibly from upper left or right).  As we reach the black, we see our hold enter a null.

If the gun didn't fire, we missed that (probably best) opportunity.  Many shooters wait for the first null to start the trigger.  Often this translates to firing completely out of sync with the nulls.

So, after we learn to recognize how our hold progresses, we can train to start our trigger operation such that the gun fires when we reach that first null.

But, wait!  There's more:

Through training and practice, we can learn what will unfold by recognizing the developing hold pattern before firing the shot.  When we learn what the process looks like when a good result is attained, we can avoid firing the shots that don't develop in the recognized manner.  (The preceding was told to me by Bill Blankenship, long ago.  My understanding is what I present.)

But, wait!  There's more:

Now, let's consider that we have the above down to a consistent routine.  The next step we can take is to determine how long this process takes from coming up on target to the firing of the shot.  This is now the timing to use for our first shot in sustained fire.  Now we know when to come up on target during the commands so that our first shot will be during the first null when the target presents itself.  (The preceding was suggested to me by Brian Zins.  Again, my understanding is what is presented.)

I'll leave it there for now and entertain any and all comments with enthusiasm...

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Post by Wobbley 2/2/2019, 2:38 pm

Progress today Edabae10
Beginning to see the light.
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