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Progress today

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bruce martindale
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thessler
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Ed Hall
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DA/SA
dieselguy624
chopper
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Jon Eulette
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Wobbley
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Post by Wobbley 12/12/2018, 3:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

A snapshot of a slow target shot at 50 feet.  20 shots. Shot indoors.  

Not a clean but definitely progress.  I saw the two wide ones and most of the tens.  It’s nice when the dot just stops in the center for a brief moment while you press the trigger. 


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Post by chopper 2/2/2019, 3:05 pm

Ed, I'm trying to understand this null. In other words when I'm taking up the slack, I'm focusing on my steadiness (settle above black) this is my null period (usually about 4 seconds), trigger is pressured and bringing dot into black (bang). 
 I've been dry firing this: take up slack, dot is above black, trigger pressure  starts while I'm moving dot into black(about 3-4 sec) most hammer falls are low but most are centered vertically. I'm assuming the null is the last second of my 3-4 sec period.
Stan

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Post by mikemyers 2/2/2019, 3:46 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Martin,
As a long time BE competitor, coach, and observer, I have made some observations. Most shooters expert and below hold too long and break shots later rather than sooner. The common result is a poor shot. Why? Fatigue from holding too long, psychological breakdown (damn this gun isn’t going off), forcing the shot to break, etc. Earlier breaking shot omits the fatigue issue. Starting squeeze before entering target bull and breaking it sooner prevents jerking trigger from holding too long ( in most cases). Another reason I prefer short roll trigger is because I can ‘feel’ it moving and ‘know’ I’m squeezing the trigger and ‘know’ it’s going to break ( prevents jerking trigger); chicken finger preventer. Long rolling triggers require much higher level of confidence to squeeze it and higher level of physical conditioning to hold pistol in position long enough to hold 10 ring without drooping low and breaking the shot. I call this two grouping; centered 10’s and low dropped shots. I cannot shoot a long roll. A medium roll is good for a newer shooter. But at some point graduation to shorter roll is necessary to break into higher classifications. Statistically if you hold longer you will not shoot a 10. Statistically if you hold to long you will not have good trigger squeeze. There are very few shooters who can hold long and shoot well. So from observations and personal experience I know that the odds are in my favor of shooting a 10 are greater if I break the shot sooner. So the shooter needs to develop their own timing on when is it best to break the shot for them. So keep track of how long shots are taking. Figure out the approximate time (2-3 seconds, etc) and try to stay in that framework. I find that I sometimes have an extremely early shot that could be an 9 or 8 at 12 o’clock. I will take that! It’s a good shot. It wasn’t jerked or drooped because I held too long. It had good trigger squeeze and my other fundamentals were good; just broke a little early. So the goal in my original post was to self test whether the earlier shots as opposed to holding longer were better. It also allows more consistently good breaking shots with no extra help from the trigger finger. Through good results it will improve your confidence and your trust of squeezing the trigger. It’s not for everyone, but what do you have to lose trying it for a while to see if you can break through a plateau.
Jon
I just got back from India.  While there, I had lots of time to read and watch, which resulted me watching Brian Zins' videos and text, such as this third entry in his series:
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/1/30/video-precision-pistol-tips-part-3-brian-zins-on-the-relationship-between-aiming-and-trigger-control

I just got a "new" (very old, actually) gun that Dave Salyer built when he was starting out doing these things.  I very much respect his advice, especially on Area Aiming.  Within a few days I hope to try out the new gun once I get the sight set properly, and at that point follow what seems to be a common thread between so many experts here, and Jon, and Brian.  With an endless amount of dry-firing, maybe I'll be able to forget about my left hand.  

The common thread is to get the sight aimed "well enough", to start applying pressure to the trigger even before the sights are ready, and to continually apply pressure until the gun fires.  If for any reason it doesn't, lower the gun, and start all over again.

Anyway, my question for you is that if a person does what everyone is suggesting, and starts to apply pressure at a reasonable rate of increase, as determined when dry-firing, isn't it true that the hold would never get "too long", as either the gun will have fired, or the shooter will have abandoned the shot, and start over again?

(Dave says to do all of this, but not to try to get the dot to freeze in the "perfect place".  As long as the dot is within your ability to shoot, that's all that's needed.  Or, for me, if at 15 yards I'm capable of shooting a 3 1/2" grouping, it's pointless to try to do better - just keep the dot within that area, and concentrate on the trigger.  ...and with one hand, I doubt I'm good enough yet to still get a 3 1/2" group.   )
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Post by Ed Hall 2/2/2019, 5:49 pm

chopper wrote:Ed, I'm trying to understand this null. In other words when I'm taking up the slack, I'm focusing on my steadiness (settle above black) this is my null period (usually about 4 seconds), trigger is pressured and bringing dot into black (bang). 
 I've been dry firing this: take up slack, dot is above black, trigger pressure  starts while I'm moving dot into black(about 3-4 sec) most hammer falls are low but most are centered vertically. I'm assuming the null is the last second of my 3-4 sec period.
Stan
I might be misinterpreting your description, but let's try to work to a common theme.

I would suggest not settling above black, if it means being stationary at a point other than the bull.  You should raise the gun into your basic position and lower it to the black without staging anywhere.  During the lowering, you should capture your sight alignment and start the trigger as you approach the black.  As you enter the black, settle there as the shot happens.  As to the null(s), your hold will have movement that decreases and increases several times, if you were to wait long enough.  Each of those decreases in size represent what I'm calling a null.  The normal progression of nulls is that even though they are smaller than the rest of the hold, they increase in size, the more nulls you pass through.  That's why the earlier nulls are better to "shoot for."

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Post by chopper 2/3/2019, 12:30 am

Ed Hall wrote:
chopper wrote:Ed, I'm trying to understand this null. In other words when I'm taking up the slack, I'm focusing on my steadiness (settle above black) this is my null period (usually about 4 seconds), trigger is pressured and bringing dot into black (bang). 
 I've been dry firing this: take up slack, dot is above black, trigger pressure  starts while I'm moving dot into black(about 3-4 sec) most hammer falls are low but most are centered vertically. I'm assuming the null is the last second of my 3-4 sec period.
Stan
I might be misinterpreting your description, but let's try to work to a common theme.

I would suggest not settling above black, if it means being stationary at a point other than the bull.  You should raise the gun into your basic position and lower it to the black without staging anywhere.  During the lowering, you should capture your sight alignment and start the trigger as you approach the black.  As you enter the black, settle there as the shot happens.  As to the null(s), your hold will have movement that decreases and increases several times, if you were to wait long enough.  Each of those decreases in size represent what I'm calling a null.  The normal progression of nulls is that even though they are smaller than the rest of the hold, they increase in size, the more nulls you pass through.  That's why the earlier nulls are better to "shoot for."
  Ed, after trying it with the Victor, what you say works very well, the hammer drops about 80% in the center of the bull. The 45 needs more work, but I think with more practice on starting trigger while lowering into black and settle in the black some where near center, it will work better than trying to time that hammer fall while moving from the white. I was actually counting 1...2...3...4 from the white and hoping the hammer would fall at 4, but usually it would fall somewhere below the black. Maybe that's why I'm shooting that 22 better than the 45, it's a more predictable and easier trigger for me. That 45 is a Clark Heavy Slide I bought used while my Springfield is getting work done and super tune up by Mr. Eulette. 
  I don't think I could hold that steady for more than 7-8 secs and the more I think about it a null for me would be about 3 secs. I know one thing for sure I need to pull that 45 trigger more and learn it.
 Thank you, Stan

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Post by Ed Hall 2/3/2019, 11:02 am

Sounds good, Stan.  Glad what I wrote made some sense to you.

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Post by thessler 2/3/2019, 2:02 pm

I have been following this thread closely. Largely because I was told that I hold an awfully long time before I pull the trigger.  Bear in mind I'm new and still getting my feet wet. I literally lost 20 to 25 points on my slow fire score by trying to get the shot off within 2 to 3 seconds. I have been working on this for a few days and in most cases I Jerk the trigger landing low right. A few times it has worked and I land a beautiful ten, but I cannot repeat that very often. My current process is get the dot into the black and forget about it and start thinking about slowly squeezing the trigger.  Anything short of that and I end up low right getting a 4 or worse. I can't seem to make that transition into a faster shot. Any thoughts on that ?
Thanks, Tom

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Post by thessler 2/3/2019, 4:31 pm

OK thanks Robert
Now that you say my way is a common starter way, I feel better about that. If others can make that transition to the faster shot,  I can. I'll keep at it.
Tom

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Post by Jon Eulette 2/3/2019, 4:43 pm

thessler wrote:OK thanks Robert
Now that you say my way is a common starter way, I feel better about that. If others can make that transition to the faster shot,  I can. I'll keep at it.
Tom
When you dry fire, as you lower pistol on blank wall be aggressive on the squeeze. A quality finessed squeeze by the way. Let shots break before settling. You should see the dot remain centered in the tube and undisturbed when shot breaks. It’s just before you settled. This teaches you to squeeze the trigger. So it doesn’t matter that it broke early, that’s a good thing. It shows you can have a good trigger squeeze that is uninterrupted, which really is the goal of the early shot training. Again typically early shots break clean and late shots are crap! 
Also most novice shooters have poor lowering skills/fundamentals lowering into the bull/aiming area. That is something else that requires training. The null Ed spoke of is a whole different area to train as well. But in my opinion if you look at all the fundamentals the trigger squeeze is the hardest to develop and has most detriment when not performed correctly.
Jon
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Post by thessler 2/3/2019, 5:55 pm

Thanks Jon
That really lays it out, I have a lot of work ahead of me.
You are right coming down on the target is difficult for me, I am much smoother coming up from the bottom. 
I think trigger squeeze is a real problem for me. I'll keep at it dry fire seems to be the way to go.
Thanks, Tom

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Post by Jon Eulette 2/9/2019, 10:51 pm

Practicing what I preach.......
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Post by TomH_pa 2/11/2019, 12:11 pm

When the shots are breaking high do you slow down the squeeze or speed up the lowering/settling?

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Post by Jon Eulette 2/11/2019, 12:25 pm

Slow down the squeeze! It’s actually very minute difference. 
Keep the lift and lowering the same.
Jon
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Post by thessler 2/11/2019, 2:37 pm

I have been trying this way I spells disaster for me. My dry fire ,I bring it down slowly.  Probably too slow give it a squeeze and the dot doesn't move, I feel like a champ. I Figure ok now I have this. 
Just came back from the range and scored a 31 !  Every shot was a Jerk in fact  quite a few shots never made the paper. 
I think when I see the target I'm feeling pressure and I squeeze " aggressively " and who knows what happens. 
I shot a few my old way , let it sit in the black for a while while thinking about slowly squeezing the trigger and it did much better. 
Not sure if I should just sucks it up and learn to do a faster shot ignoring the score card. Or stick with what works for me and when I become a better shooter,  try the faster way again.
Thanks , Tom

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Post by Allgoodhits 2/11/2019, 2:46 pm

Thanks Ed and Jon.
Excellent, and welcomed wisdom from you two.

Martin
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Post by 285wannab 2/11/2019, 2:56 pm

Martin, I agree with you 100%

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Post by Jon Eulette 2/11/2019, 6:19 pm

thessler, lifting and lowering the pistol requires the same exactness as squeezing the trigger. Work on becoming more mechanical/precise in the movements. Makes a huge difference.
Jon
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Post by TomH_pa 2/11/2019, 8:55 pm

Can you elaborate a little more on this being precise with the lift and settle?
What elements need refined?
I'm fairly sure from hearing this I am a little too random in my movements.

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Post by thessler 2/12/2019, 6:18 am

Thanks Jon
I work on this daily, I'll get it.
Tom

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Post by bruce martindale 2/12/2019, 9:28 am

I like what Jon suggests, but as a technique to aspire to, not one to necessarily start from. Many high level shooters can make the shot go when they want vs allowing it to happen of its own. Chances are, you and l, can't.  Learning to walk vs mastering running. Most of us need to learn to walk. Stopping the pull during the wait for the turn is an easy trap to fall into. Restarting the trigger after stopping is prone to jerks. An almost continuous pull starting prior to the turn is truely an art and an act of faith. A slow pull in Skeet derails many. I tend to rush that first shot, and with it, chance ruin the remainder of the string. Don Holmes gave a good description of TF. You have the time to shoot 5 shots, slow, and make them all good, with the same trigger pull each time. Rapid is TF but a little quicker. I have to remember it myself...

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Post by musky 2/17/2019, 7:42 pm

Not sure if this relates or not, but with many, many, years of target archery under my belt, one thing that I have learned is not to worry about the dot in my archery sight, floating around a bit in the bull. If you concentrate on the center of the bull, and your form is good, the arrow will find it's way there. If you try too hard to freeze your dot on the center of the bull, you will sooner or later develop target panic.

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Post by Ray Dash 2/18/2019, 6:35 am

I am just getting started in Precision pistol and this thread has been the one that I keep coming back to and reading over and over. Since I started out a few months ago I was taught to bring the pistol down to the target and then hold until the shot looked good. Many times I would get a good shot but a lot of times I would pull the shot all over the map.  

After reading this thread I see that the way I have been doing it may not be best way so I am starting over and trying everything that I read here. When I do everything right and start my trigger pull on the way down into the black the shot surprises me and almost every time ends up in the black ring. The biggest problem I have is trusting that the shot will go off and being nervous that its going to go off to soon before the pistol has made it to the black which causes me to wait to long before starting my trigger pull. When I do this I then rush the shot and end up low and even outside the rings. I have to stop worrying about score when I practice and just work on my fundamentals until I start to improve.
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Post by Bmitch996 2/21/2019, 7:31 pm

B16 Target @ 25yds

Stone cold first target, four 8rd mags

Progress   no sevensProgress today - Page 2 Img_3210

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Post by Willfish30 2/27/2019, 11:49 am

I have been following this thread from the beginning and have reread it a few times. Dry firing using the recommended methods have been enlightening. The last couple of range sessions show a marked improvement in consistency (less flyers).

Applying approx 1/2 the  pressure to the trigger before reaching the black seems to be easier with a roll trigger than a crisp trigger.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, especially Mssrs Jon Eulette and Ed Hall.

Will

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